Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I’m excited to bring you this conversation today with Chelsey Cole. She’s a licensed psychotherapist. She’s an expert in narcissistic abuse recovery, and she’s a bestselling author of If Only I’d Known: How to Outsmart Narcissists, Set Guilt-Free Boundaries, and Create Unshakable Self-Worth.

She, uh, specializes in helping individuals understand the psychology of narcissists, which is what we’re gonna talk about today, heal from trauma, and build boundaries rooted in authenticity and not guilt. Chelsey, welcome. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Thank you. Very happy to be here. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, I’m happy to have this conversation. So I feel like understanding the psychology of a narcissist is- Number one, incredibly important.

Mm-hmm. Number two, really hard to wrap our brains around, right? [00:01:00] Yes. Because they operate so differently than we do, right? Mm-hmm. We’re always, like we’re in the relationship or we’re in therapy or we’re doing this trying to like fix things and reconnect, right? Yeah. But that’s not, that’s not their MO. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: No, and that’s actually usually where I start when I am telling people about narcissists is who they are not.

Like they are not like you. Mm-hmm. They’re someone who is fundamentally different than you. ‘Cause we’ve all kind of heard the terms like, oh, they’re grandiose. Okay, they’re, they’re charming, they’re charismatic, they’re arrogant, they lack empathy. Okay, we get that. But what does that really mean? Sometimes we kind of, we, we lose the significance when we get into the clinical terms or just trying to diagnose it because then somet- I sometimes see people getting stuck like, “Well, are they a narcissist or are they not a narcissist?”

Because they’re looking for the signs- Yeah … and they’re looking for the checklist and it’s like, well, first of all, it, somebody can do damage and it doesn’t really matter whether they have narcissistic personality disorder, whether they’re a narcissist or not. If they’re being abusive, they’re being abusive.

But I do think it helps to talk about the kind of person we’re [00:02:00] discussing when we say narcissist. I like to think of it from the framework of agreeable versus disagreeable. Hmm. And what I mean by that is the number one personality trait that most survivors have in common is agreeableness. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: And this is probably not surprising because if you are listening to this and you’re the kind of person who’s empathetic, who’s self-reflective, who tends to assume the best in others, who gives second chances, who is willing to dismiss or change or downplay your own needs to do what’s best for the group, to do what’s best for the relationship, we tend to take those agreeable glasses and put those on and then try to understand others from that framework.

So we are looking at other people and thinking, “Well, surely they mean well. Surely they don’t mean to cause conflict. Surely they don’t want a relationship that’s full of drama and tension and chaos,” but they do. But they do. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I mean, I [00:03:00] have clients who, you know, they’re so agreeable and they’re so empathetic and they’re so just kind that they’re like Well, it’s, but it’s his trauma.

Uh, it’s his trauma. It’s h- he doesn’t mean it. There’s a lot of talk i- with my clients often about, like, impact versus intent. Mm. Right? And they’re like, “I don’t think he’s, I don’t think he means to be all of these things, but that’s how it feels to me, and try to explain that to him,” and, and, and, right?

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. What do you think about that? I’m taking a deep breath as you’re saying that, ’cause I’m thinking about so many clients. Mm-hmm. And the heaviness of seeing somebody like that, and resonating with it myself. It’s not like I haven’t been here. Like, I don’t just- Right … talk about narcissistic abuse from a clinical standpoint.

Like, yes, I am a psychotherapist and I specialize in it, but I have years- But there’s a reason. Yeah, there’s a reason. I have years of dealing with this too. Same girl. [00:05:00] Right. And having grown up with it, having dealt with different types of narcissists in different situations, in different spaces, I, I, I, I feel the heaviness for myself too, ’cause I resonate with exactly what you’re saying.

Oh, I did that. Excuses, justifications, rationalizations, all of them. Right. And so a lot of the work that I do with clients is starting from this foundation, is I think it’s twofold. It’s We have to help agreeable people feel more comfortable setting boundaries- Mm-hmm … which we can get into. Okay. Because it’s not, it’s not that you need to become less agreeable.

I’m not telling people- Right … ’cause a lot of times that’s what they hear. You know what? This sensitivity, this empathy, I’ve gotta learn to be tough. I’ve gotta learn to be direct. I’ve gotta almost like you- I’ve gotta be a bitch … A bitch. You need to… Right. You’ve gotta, like, adjust your whole personality to protect yourself, and you don’t, and that’s not what I want people to get from this, ’cause to me that’s the worst outcome is if the narcissist [00:06:00] gets to take who you are.

Yes. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: right. So it’s very important that you don’t… You know that those are beautiful qualities. We need more agreeable people, not less agreeable people. Right. Right. And so you have to learn to set boundaries around that. But something that you did say that I wanted to come back to that’s such a common myth is that trauma causes narcissism.

Okay. And it doesn’t. Let’s, let’s break it down. Yep. Okay. Because, I mean, I think even if we just take a step back, I think we have assumed that because we’ve heard it so much. Like, sh- it has to be trauma because who else acts like this? Okay. How else would somebody be so entitled and be so out of touch with reality and have such distorted thinking and not care about others?

They had to have to go through something incredibly awful. Hmm. And so sometimes there’s even this pushback, or I’ve seen this whole subset of people who feel sorry for and bad for narcissists and get mad at, you know, us and the people that are really supporting survivors [00:07:00] because they’re like, “Well, they, they have trauma, too.”

Great. They might. They can go deal with it. That’s right. They might. I mean, I don’t think we have any lack of empathy. I’ve worked with some narcissistic clients. Some of them have traumatic backgrounds and, and I have compassion for that But the reason that we know trauma doesn’t cause narcissism is because addressing the trauma doesn’t stop the narcissism.

Kate Anthony: Now, okay, so what I’ve always heard, right, is that it’s an irreparable fracture that occurs- Mm-hmm … because of traum- you know, childhood trauma, whatever. So it is a, it’s- it’s irreparable. But you’re saying no. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. I mean, it’s an ongoing exploration. There are certainly different views on this. Mm-hmm. But the more and more that I get into this study, and I’ve done this over a decade now- Yeah, sure

if that was the case, then- Yeah … addressing the trauma should address the narcissistic behaviors. Because if that’s what is causing the narcissism- Right, right, right … yeah, then healing those [00:08:00] wounds would- would help them be less antagonistic and be like, “Oh, I need to open up to people. I need to soften to people,” and it doesn’t.

Plus, if you have trauma, you’re much more likely to become an- an anxious adult than a narcissistic adult. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, and those things are not necessarily mutually exclusive, right? I’ve known a lot of anxious narcissists . Yes, depending on the types. My ex-husband being the , being the key, being the poster child for that.

Yeah, so the types. Okay, so you … Well, let’s get, I wanna get to the types, ’cause you’ve identified six types. But I think this is really fascinating. So in your studies and your sort of experience and estimation, it’s not the trauma that causes it. So, right? Yeah. We al- there was, there’s always this- this conversation that, like, narcissists are created, sociopaths are born, in a sense, right?

I mean, that’s very, you know, basic and distilled. But you say maybe not. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: [00:09:00] Trauma can be a part of the story, but it’s not the cause of the whole thing. Mm, okay. Trauma certainly could be a part of it, and it might Almost like it irritates what’s already there. Hmm. So there’s like a genetic component that is certainly inborn.

Like, there is a, there’s a part of this personality where it’s easier to look back and see what could have contributed to someone being narcissistic. So we can … Like, all the, most of the studies that are talking about, you know, trauma causes narcissism, we’re looking at a narcissist and looking back at their past and going, “Well, what could have caused them to be that way?”

And that’s just kind 

Kate Anthony: of 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: flip-flop thinking. 

Kate Anthony: I see. Right. It’s correlative, not causation. Yes, exactly. So do you have any sense of what does cause it? Other than like, uh, some people have it and some people don’t. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: There’s certainly a genetic component. There, there is- Okay … because narcissists we know have difficult temperaments, meaning just as kids, [00:10:00] and I worked with some of these kids ’cause I, I’m a registered play therapist as well, and I have been in a room with kids and I’m like, “I think I’m dealing with a future psychopath.”

The manipulation, the, the level of intent, the level of smugness and- Oh, yes … arrogance and lack of remorse at an early age, like a disturbingly early age. Mm. There, now, that doesn’t g- mean to say that somebody can’t control their behavior, so that’s like a very different conversation, but we’re just talking about what creates- Oh, no

narcissists. 

Kate Anthony: Sure. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Because regardless, adult or behavior, y- or adults are responsible for their behavior Sure But yes, so there’s this, there is an inborn temperament of these kids that are just harder to soothe. You have to work even more to teach them empathy ’cause they just don’t seem to care. Like, you’re constantly correcting them.

You’re constantly trying to make them or encourage them to, to care about [00:11:00] somebody else or care about what happens. Or they … Some of them are even more hypersensitive. Like, they have a j- harder time regulating themselves. Right. Yeah So we kind of, we do see that within narcissists, m- particularly more with the covert or vulnerable type, so that the one that’s defensive, hypersensitive to criticism.

They are more anxious. They are more depressed. So yeah, trauma can certainly be a correlation. We can look back in a narcissist’s past and say, “Oh, well there’s trauma.” But you can for most, uh, narcissistic abuse survivors too, and most adults honestly at this point, you can look back and say there was trauma in their past.

Kate Anthony: No, right? The fi- find me somebody, you know, who doesn’t have it. Yeah Find me somebody who has no trauma. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Most people do at this point, so yeah, it’s- Of 

Kate Anthony: course, now that we understand what trauma is too, right? Yeah Because I think that’s, that’s a huge piece of it, is that, you know, so many of us were like, “Well, I was…

I,” you know, thinking big T trauma- Mm-hmm … um, was the only kind of trauma. Like, I have never been attacked or [00:12:00] physically assaulted or raped or, you know, didn’t grow up in a, in a war-torn country or something like that. Right You know, I was born in the ’70s, and, you know, find me a Gen X-er … that doesn’t have emotional psychological trauma from, you know, 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: being- Yeah

free range and feral. And the dynamics of the house at that time, just like the, you know, you’re supposed to be seen and not heard and all these things that, you know, you grew up hearing that made you feel not enough or guilty, and emotions were not talked about or addressed, and you’re supposed to just do what’s expected, and there wasn’t space for you to…

Like, what you wanted didn’t really matter. I mean, there’s a lot of, yes, things that contributed to adults who are Overly agreeable, I would say. Agreeable to, uh, to, to their own detriment. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. That, that, that was me. So okay, so let’s get into these six types- Mm-hmm … of narcissists. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah, so most of us are [00:13:00] familiar with the grandiose type.

Mm-hmm. That’s the typical charming, charismatic, extroverted. They can pull you in with the charm, and especially in a romantic sense, thing- things tend to move quickly, they’re intense, they could be like the love of your life. They can do a lot of mirroring, getting to know you quickly, what you want, what you like, what your goals are, what your hopes are, and then selling that version back to you as the reality that you’re gonna get with them.

They learn what you want, and, you know, off you go into your fairy tale until it becomes a nightmare. The covert narcissist is actually more correctly termed in literature the, the vulnerable narcissist. These are the narcissists that are anxious, depressed, withdrawn, sullen, or they just seem really nice and docile and innocent, and you’re like, “They are not a narcissist.”

They come across as harmless, and I think that’s why they’re honestly the one of the most dangerous types, if not the most dangerous type. Agree. Yeah, because these are the ones that people are like, “I did not see [00:14:00] this coming.” That’s right. They, they, they were too nice. Um- Yeah … I’ve dealt with this type of narcissist, and I would say this one did way more damage to me than the grandiose malignant one because I, my guard was down.

Sure. And that’s what people find a lot of times with the covert vulnerable narcissist. We have the neglectful narcissist is the one that has all the core narcissistic traits. They are entitled. They lack empathy. They’re hypocritical. But you don’t get the loud conflicts with them. Their go-to to abuse you is silent treatment, is- Oh

is neglect, aka that’s why they’re called the neglectful narcissist. So they’re gonna act like you don’t exist literally until they need something from you. Oh. You’re in the room with them, and it’s like they are looking straight through you. Okay. They don’t- Yes, yes … they of all the narcissists view people in a very transactional way.

So it’s like, “I see you when I need you, and if I don’t, then you’re in the garage on a shelf somewhere [00:15:00] And I’ll get you when I need you again. Yes. We’ve got the self-righteous narcissist. Ah. You can think of that as a mix between OCD personality disorder and narcissism. So this is a person who is incredibly structured, incredibly routined, and for somebody who has chaotic, like, kind of a chaotic background, this type of narcissist can be very appealing, ’cause you’re like, “Oh, they’re adulting.”

This is what it looks like to be put together, to be responsible, because they are so miserly in what they do, whether it’s how they keep the house, whether it’s finances, whether it’s work, whether it’s what needs to be done, when, where. Like, whatever their thing is, they are incredibly detail-oriented in doing that thing.

And so you f- end up feeling very self-conscious around them. Ah. Like you- Mm-hmm … are being judged for every little thing because you know they are picking up on every little thing, and they h- they’re obsessed with being right. Every narcissist kinda has their [00:16:00] flavor, you know? The vulnerable narcissist, obsessed with being the most victimized.

Yes. No one’s been through more than they have. Right. The self-righteous narcissist has to always be right. 

Kate Anthony: Mm-hmm. No 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: one’s gonna be more right than they are. Gotcha. Right. And then there’s the communal narcissist. Mm-hmm. These are the humanitarians, philanthropists, do-gooders of the world. From afar, they look amazing.

They’re self-sacrificial, or they look so self-sacrificial. They, these are the, the people that you look at and you’re like, “Wow.” You admire them. They have perfectly crafted social media accounts. They’re out, you know, solving world hunger, helping the homeless, at all the PTA bake sales. Like, at, they’re just doing it, all the things.

But to people closest to them, they are cruel, they’re dismissive, they’re antagonistic, they’re all those things that leave you with a lot of cognitive dissonance. Like, how could somebody look like they have so much empathy- Mm-hmm … and then not care about the person in front of them? Right. Right. And that’s the communal [00:17:00] narcissist.

Yep. And then I believe the last one is the malignant narcissist, which is the mix of narcissism, psychopathy, sadism, and Machiavellianism. Nice. With that singular focus on power. Right? That’s a, that’s a good combination. So they are the darkest, the, the ones that you fear how far they’re gonna go because they have those psychopathic tendencies as well.

Right. Right. Yes. So it can look different, and that’s why, like, I 

Kate Anthony: think it’s important people to know that. It is important for people to know that ’cause it can look different, and it often, it does look different. For people, like, with the, um, the communal narcissist, right, it’s so hard for them because nobody would

They feel like nobody will believe them. Right. Everyone’s like, “But he’s so nice. He’s, he does so much good in the world. He’s such a great guy,” right? The great guy- 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Ugh … 

Kate Anthony: is, you know, can be one of the most dangerous because nobody believes you. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: And [00:18:00] narcissists put so much into their image because that’s what matters to them.

It’s a lot of image management. 

Kate Anthony: Right, all of them. All of them. Right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Yes, exactly. The vulnerable, I think their image is about being the nice guy. Mm-hmm. Being, right, just sort of like, like you said, docile and sort of- Innocent, harmless … it, yes. Or I think there’s two flavors of the vulnerable, right, because I know that there is, like, the nice guy- Mm-hmm

the nice guy narcissist that, like, he’s such a nice guy and he’s so harmless, but then there’s also the vulnerable narcissist that weaponizes their vulnerability. Oh, for sure. That uses their, like, “I’m so in touch with myself,” this is, PS, my ex-husband, “I’m so in touch with my feelings that, like, I look like I’m so emotionally available, but then I have all these problems.”

And it’s like they suck the air out of every room that they go into with talking about their [00:19:00] feelings- Mm-hmm … their ailments, right? And it, it masquerades as emotional vulnerability and availability, but what it is, is, like, is domination. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yes. They, their needs always take up the most space in the room, so you’re not allowed to have any.

But it’s done in such an unassuming way, and then also in a, a way that looks self-aware. Right. Right. Exactly. And I think that, that makes it extra damaging. I’ll, I’ll say that with narcissist, you know, one of my exes was, was a covert vulnerable narcissist, and he- since he also had a sex addiction, we were in treatment- Oh

in therapy. Same, girl. Yeah. Had to. Fun times. Through the therapy, he learned the right things to say, too, and I even started to see him win over the therapists, and, and I was also a therapist [00:20:00] at this time. I like to throw that in there, too. Uh-huh. And to sit and to wa- like it, it made me wanna puke, honestly.

To see, I knew the, the real that was happening behind the scenes. Like, I knew he was talking bad about these therapists, you know, behind their backs and- Uh … was getting contemptuous, getting ti- like, “Who do they think they are telling me, you know, to do this, this, and this?” But in front of them was s- seemed so into it, and so, yes, into his feelings and going back into his childhood and, you know, repairing things, and I’m just sitting there like Just disgusted because- Yeah

I know it’s an act, and the closer we got to the end of that relationship, the more I saw it- Yep … as an act. I did not- Yep … see that in the beginning. But the more that I, you know, saw through him, the more and more I saw it as an act, and the more and more I was disgusted with it, and it just made me sick because I saw the way he was taking something [00:21:00] that means so much to me, obviously, as a therapist too, like that’s such a sacred space, and I saw the therapist, and I could even imagine myself in that situation where you assume a client is coming in, they’re being genuine, so you just give them all the empathy and all the understanding ’cause that is your role.

Right. And you care about them. And then to see him exploiting that, just an extra layer of ick there. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. And this is, I mean, this is one of the reasons that we don’t r- we should never go to therapy with a narcissist because like it- Yes, exactly Right? And the thing is, is that you were a therapist, so you were able to identify what was happening, but I think if you were not- 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Mm-hmm

Kate Anthony: you would’ve felt so much more gaslit than I’m sure you already did. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: For sure. And I will say to that, that I did not learn what I have learned in grad school. Right. So- That’s right … I don’t even think- They don’t teach it. No, they don’t teach it. I mean, I had one [00:22:00] diagnosis class, and so we, like, quickly, you know, went over the terms, you know, in the DSM, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, for personality disorders and things like that.

Right. But I had never heard vulnerable narcissist. I don’t think I had, at that point, ever heard the word trauma bonding, gaslighting- Nope … coercive control. I don’t think I had heard those terms even during my own … Even going to therapy during that time and going to therapy with him for couples therapy, I don’t think I had s- had heard that.

So anybody could find themselves in that situation. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. And that’s the, that’s the thing that I repeat ad nauseam on this show, and I will repeat it again, which is that therapists are not trained to recognize these things, that it is not- Yeah … part of their basic training. Like, if they learn about it- Mm

it’s because of either additional training that they receive, that, that they seek out- Yes, yes … um, as part of their continued education, but this is not taught. I, [00:24:00] I would, I would argue that this is one of the most important issues that comes up in couples work, certainly- Mm-hmm … or in any personal work certainly nowadays, and it’s not taught.

And so your therapist is not the person who is necessarily gonna be the person to sort of point these things out. And also, as we talked about in the very beginning, right? They’re not there for the same reasons you are. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Right? You go to therapy with your narcissistic partner because you’re looking to heal the relationship and to foster some closeness and all of those things.

That’s not what they’re there for. What are they there for?

Chelsey Brooke Cole: We’ll go back to what we talked about in the beginning is survivors are agreeable, narcissists are disagreeable. So all narcissists, there’s that correlation that all narcissists are disagreeable. [00:27:00] So if they are a narcissist, they are disagreeable, which means, I’ll, I’ll briefly break down what that means as a personality trait.

Yeah. It means they are not modest. They do not mind bragging or coming across as, you know, better than. And that’s so opposite to how agreeable people are. We tend to be humble. We tend to even downplay our strengths or our achievements, especially if we know, like, somebody else might be struggling, somebody else lost their job.

We’re gonna, you know, not talk about the fact that we just got a promotion. A narcissist absolutely will. Uh-huh. They believe a certain amount of deception is necessary in relationships. So think about how this plays out in your conversations. You’re approaching conversations thinking, “I wanna be authentic, I wanna be sincere, I wanna make this work, I wanna be collaborative-” Put it on the table

I want to cooperate. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. All the things. You’re coming to it with such good intentions. Yeah. And a narcissistic person is coming to that conversation, if there’s something [00:28:00] to hide, it’s finding out what you already know and telling you no more than they think you already know, or only making sure that you know only what, like, the bare minimum.

So their goal is not, “Let me be honest with her.” Right. It’s, “What can I tell her to f- to make her feel like she knows something, but she’ll leave me alone or she’ll stay?” They are trying to control the situation. Yeah. They’re trying to control you, they’re trying to control your perceptions, your thoughts, your feelings.

If they can wear you down and make you believe you’re someone you’re not, they’ve got you. That’s right. And that’s how they approach conversations. Yeah. So there’s… They, they believe in deception in relationships. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. I wanna, I wanna go back to that thing, like, where you- Okay … believe you’re something you’re not, which I think is so important.

Which is, because the number of us who- Yes … these agree… We’re, we’re agreeable, as you said, right? And so what do we do? We’re [00:29:00] like, if, if they say that I am X- Mm-hmm … right? I am jealous, I am cold, I am, you know, not pulling my weight, I’m not supportive enough, I’m, like, all… And if I… You know, because this is, like, the moving target, right?

Where they’re like- Oh, yes … “Well, you just need to do X, and then we’ll be fine.” Mm-hmm. So we, we’re, we’re agreeable. We’re gonna, we’re gonna seek it out, right? Mm-hmm. Or you need to be less Y. Mm-hmm. And then we’re like, “Okay. Well, I’ll…” Right? And all of a sudden you are believing yourself to be these things that they have labeled you, because maybe we believe them to be insightful or we can’t imagine that somebody would ascribe something to us- 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Mm-hmm

Kate Anthony: that they don’t see or believe or, like, like, “Oh, well, okay, I guess that’s something, that’s a blind spot for me.” Mm. “Let me take a look at that.” Right? Yeah. And so we start to believe things about ourselves [00:30:00] that are just false. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yes, I’m so glad you highlighted that because it- narcissists don’t even necessarily believe what they’re saying about you 

Kate Anthony: I love that. Repeat that. Say that again, Chelsey. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Narcissists don’t even necessarily believe what they are saying about you. So they’re not seeing, quote-unquote, selfishness and you being controlling. And, and they truly believe that. Because I have personally heard and seen from working with so many survivors at this point- Mm-hmm

where in certain moments, narcissists will admit they know who you are. They know you’re a decent person. That’s true. That’s why they’re with you. That’s right. They also wouldn’t stay with you if they didn’t think it benefited them. Right. They wouldn’t stay with you if they couldn’t exploit your good qualities.

I mean, that’s part of the, part of how we end up in these relationships is because it’s not [00:31:00] that there’s something wrong with you, like I said, and, like, your agreeableness is the problem, but it’s narcissists kind of put out these feelers. It’s like, “Who is going to let me do what I want? Who’s not gonna ask too many questions?

Who can I bulldoze and they’ll, they’ll be quiet, and they won’t, they won’t bother me, and they won’t make me be accountable too much? Who can I easily push their boundaries?” Mm-hmm. And once they find that person, then they stay with you. So they want you to think that you’re the problem and that you need to change, when in reality they’re benefiting from who they know you are.

Yes. ‘Cause at some points they will admit, like m- my narcissist would say, “Uh, she was just too smart,” like aka Be dumber … I picked up on things. 

Kate Anthony: Y- y- that’s right. That’s right. Uh-huh. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yes. He liked being with me. He liked the, the whatever status he got from being with me, or the fact that [00:32:00] I m- made money and he could benefit off of that, like whatever.

So they’re with you because they really know who you are. Oh. They don’t actually believe that. They just need you to believe that so that you will, as you said, the moving target, and you’ll just stay on this treadmill, and that’s a lot of times what it feels like on a narcissistic relationship. You’re just…

You’re trying to get somewhere, but you’re on a treadmill going nowhere. Yeah. And that’s by design. Mm-hmm. That’s not an accident that you feel that way. Narcissists wanna become the filter through which you see the world. Hmm. That is why they work so hard to break you down and make you believe you’re someone that you’re not.

Kate Anthony: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And then until you’re kind of reduced to nothing, right? I mean- Until you feel like 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: a 

Kate Anthony: shell of a 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: person. Yeah. I mean, how many times, like, I felt that way- I felt that way … most survivors I know. Yeah, they end up feeling that way. At the end of… Like, you don’t know yourself. And, and I resonate with that as well.

The end of my last narcissistic relationship, I felt very hollowed out But it was this weird middle ground where [00:33:00] I also knew I had hit rock bottom and I, and I had to take an honest look at my life and make a change. And it’s almost like I gathered strength at that point too- Mm-hmm … because I had to decide to stop looking outward, stop looking to other people.

Being from a narcissist, having a narcis- a narcissistic dad as well, I kinda have that typical perfectionistic quality that can come from having a narcissistic parent, not feeling good enough. So a lot of times I was looking like, “Oh, this is how you build self-esteem. Well, this is what this person does.

Well, this is what this person does.” And I was just trying to, like, on this treadmill myself, trying to be better, trying to be better. And I finally had to sit with nobody else is having to deal with the consequences of the decisions I’m making. Like, I have to own these. Okay. I have to sit with them and make decisions that I feel like are best for me, regardless of whether other people get it or understand it, or what- whatever advice of people who aren’t gonna understand ’cause they don’t really know what I’m dealing with.

‘Cause they don’t… Right. Exactly. [00:34:00] Yes. Yes. So I, I say that to say I decided at that point I will never again let somebody convince me I’m someone I’m not. 

Kate Anthony: Mm-hmm. Yes. And so let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the healing journey, right? Mm. Because I, I think sometimes it’s really important f- you know, people I think listening to this podcast might look at me, look at you, we have gone through a tremendous amount of healing- Mm-hmm

and are on the other side and embody maybe, m- maybe, I’m making it up, I don’t know what you guys think of me, but you know, a confidence. And like, and people- Yeah … might say, might f- think or feel like, “But she never felt the way I feel,” or, you know, “She… I can’t imagine Kate being like a hollowed out shell of a person and having no confidence,” and like, right?

Yeah. And I just wanna like, oh my God, you guys, [00:35:00] I was exactly that. However, like the worst that you feel right now was exactly how I felt, exactly who I was. I was literally… People would say like, “How are you?” And I’d be like, “Good.” Mm. “Yeah.” Like, I had nothing to offer. What’s going on? I don’t know. A deer in headlights.

Yes. Yes. So empty. And so I wanna just like, I, I, I think it’s so important to like express that . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know? That… And so what is the path? What is the path from that to somebody who knows who they are- Mm-hmm … somebody who doesn’t get defined by other people, somebody who says, “I will never,” and like knows that they will never because of X, Y, Z.

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Because you feel so bad after narcissistic abuse, we often think that we need something really big to get out of it. So a lot of times [00:36:00] people will say or ask, “What’s the one thing I need to be focusing on though? Like, what exactly,” like you’re saying, “What exactly did you do? How did you get out of it?” It just, it feels so, so big, so overwhelming, you can’t imagine feeling differently.

Yeah. And I often describe narcissistic abuse as it’s like 1,000 small cuts. Mm-hmm. And so every healing step you take is like putting a Band-Aid over one of those cuts. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: And what that means is that the process for me, and I can imagine for you, was in the micro changes. Mm. It was in micro shifts. Mm-hmm.

It wasn’t big macro one day you wake up and you’re just, you have confidence, and you’ve made sense of gaslighting, and you’re just back on it. No. Right. And no. It’s in the small changes over time. So one of those things that I teach people to do early on is, I think i- if I could summarize what I help people do, like in the most succinct way, I help people learn to trust themselves again after narcissistic abuse.

Yeah. I think [00:37:00] that’s the most important thing- that we could ever get to because as we talked about, the biggest thing that they do is take you from you. Yes. They become that filter through which you see the world, so they … Even if you’re not in the relationship anymore, even if you’re divorced, even if you’re, they’re not around, sometimes that narcissistic voice can still be present, and it’s still, like, burrowed in your mind and- Oh, it is so embedded.

Kate Anthony: Oh, 100%. Absolutely. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. Especially if you grew up with that too. Like, it- Uh-huh. A lot of people feel like, “Well, I’m, I never existed without this. Who, who am I?” Yeah. So we do have to start small. But it doesn’t take as long as you would think. Once you just do… On- once you just start, I think that is one thing I want people to know up front is the biggest hurdle is we think it’s gonna take so long, and it’s gonna be so big, and it’s gonna be so hard.

Yeah. I’m not gonna say it’s not gonna be hard, but you’ve already… You’ve done hard. 

Kate Anthony: You’ve done… Yes, right. Exactly. Yes. You- You’ve been living hard for all this time. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Exactly, except this hard [00:38:00] is going to get you to where you wanna be. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, that’s right. Once you kinda crack open the understanding of what has been happening- 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Mm-hmm

Kate Anthony: that to me, like, once you have a name and a place and a, like, a, a way to categorize it- 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Mm-hmm … and, 

Kate Anthony: I, you know, I don’t- I, I ta- I do talk about this all the time, that, like, I, I got out of my marriage in 2009. There was no Instagram, there were no podcasts. We were not having these conversations. This was not a cult- the cultural zeitgeist that it is today.

Yeah. And I didn’t know. I had no idea, and I spent years suffering and trying to, like, tie myself into pretzels and all of the things, trying to be the thing, right? I hear all the time from, from listeners saying, “I found your podcast. I had no idea what I was dealing with.” [00:39:00] Mm. It just opened all… And so from, from…

I firmly believe that, like, just listening to my show, following your work, listening to your show, whatever it is that, that helps you name what’s happening, that to me is the big thing. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Yeah. Right? 

Kate Anthony: And then you can start putting those little Band-Aids on, because that’s sort of ripping it all open and going, “Oh my God, look at all those wounds.

Those are not-” Yeah … “character flaws. They were wounds that were inflicted on me.” And then you can start putting the little Band-Aids on. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Right. You, we always have to start with the context, and that is the essence of trauma-informed work- Mm-hmm … is that you see the person within the context. Right. You don’t just see the symptoms.

Unfortunately, that’s what a lot of therapy does. And to your point, a lot of therapists are not trained to see this. They’re not even necessarily trained to see complex trauma or relational trauma. No. And so when you go in, a lot of typical, even CBT kind of therapy is like, “Well, what [00:40:00] symptoms do you have?

And here’s the checklist, and here’s the di-” Especially if you’re dealing with insurance. “Here’s the diagnosis this fits under. Okay, you have major depression, you have generalized anxiety.” And sometimes that just feels like something else that’s wrong with you. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: But if you’re a therapist and if your healing isn’t putting what you’ve been through and your, quote, “symptoms” into context, then you’re missing it.

Mm-hmm. Because s- those symptoms, rumination, hypervigilance, feeling anxious, not trusting yourself, all that makes total sense once you know what you’ve been through. Oh. Which is why that is often the first step. I think the first thing that gets people in the door is, “Oh, this isn’t me.” Mm-hmm. So it reduces the shame enough that you can actually start healing.

‘Cause shame can be a huge barrier. Like, this is just something wrong with me. Then again, that can make it feel really big and like, “Well, I’m never gonna be able to overcome this and it’s, it’s too big.” So we… Yes, you have to put it in context. Mm-hmm. And then the small shifts that we can start making every day is, I will tell my clients [00:41:00] Three times a day, ask yourself, “How do I feel and what do I need?”

And what I mean by that is, how do I feel as in what am I noticing in my body? So using, you know, some more somatic work here. I’m big into that with clients in anything I do. Where do you feel that in your body? Tightness in your chest, heaviness in your stomach, racing head. And then learning, of course it takes some time, but learning to put emotions to that.

Like, what does it feel like for me when I’m anxious? What does it feel like for me when I’m sad or lonely? So noticing how you’re feeling, and then what do I need? Meaning, what do I need to address that feeling? You might notice that you’re hungry, you’re anxious, you’re lonely, you’re tired. Maybe you need to get up because you’ve been sitting in front of a computer all day.

Maybe you haven’t eaten anything ’cause you’ve been rushing from one thing to the next, and you haven’t even taken a breath. So that seems like a small thing, but it’s not. That’s actually part of the work. That’s huge. Because I [00:42:00] guarantee- Mm-hmm. Agree … in your narcissistic relationship, your focus was not internal, it was external.

Yes. What mood are they in? What calamity’s gonna happen? What conflict is gonna come up? How can I say this so that they don’t get mad or that they’ll be able to hear me? Like, so much focus is going outside. So I, I say we have to shift from outside in perspective to an inside out. We have to start with you.

‘Cause I don’t know about you, but so many people, myself included, you get to the end of that relationship and you don’t know how you feel. I d- nope. You don’t know what you need. I didn’t know my 

Kate Anthony: favorite color. I didn’t know what I wanted to eat. I had- Exactly … like 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: nothing. Nothing. You don’t know anything about yourself.

And for people who haven’t experienced narcissistic abuse, complex trauma, relational trauma, that’s hard to imagine. And that’s why, again, a lot of times you’ll get bad advice even from well-meaning people, even from well-meaning therapists if they don’t specialize in this area. They’ll say th- like, “How do you not know who you are?

You’re, you’re 20, 30, 50, 60 years old and you don’t know what you like?” [00:44:00] Well, yeah. Yeah. That’s what- Yeah. … trauma does to you. That’s what- Right … these people do to you. That’s why the healing work looks different. We’re not, we’re not dealing with typical post-traumatic stress, where- Right … you’re just having flashbacks because you were in a war zone or in a car wreck.

And so the healing strategies are gonna look different. They’re gonna look more like slowing down, tuning into your body. That’s something else I encourage clients to do, is slowing down to ask yourself, “Did I like that or not?” Mm. And if so, why? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Like, that’s hugely- Yes … powerful. 

Kate Anthony: And there’s information when you’re like, “I, I have no idea.”

Yeah, that’s- Which would be me, right, at the time. I don’t know. Yeah. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: And that’s okay. Like, we- it’s really important that you don’t, that we don’t start this process from, “Oh my goodness, I don’t know myself at all. What am I doing? I don’t even know what color I like.” Yeah. That’s okay. Just- Yes … give yourself time and permission to explore it.

Look at it more as a curiosity- [00:45:00] Mm-hmm … rather than a criticism. Yes. Yes, yes. I love it. Be very mindful of that critical voice because that’s likely not yours. That has likely been implanted- 100%, yeah … by either a narcissistic parent, spouse, whoever. But just be curious, and over time, you will start to learn yourself.

Kate Anthony: Chelsey, this has been such a great conversation. I feel like we could go on all day long. But if people wanna continue the conversation with you, where can they find you? 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Well, if you’ve been resonating with this and you want to learn to trust yourself again, then I would recommend starting with my free masterclass, The Narcissist Playbook, as I uncover the three core lies narcissists use to keep you stuck, and then how to stop believing them and start trusting yourself.

Mm-hmm. You can also find me on all the social medias and my resources at Chelseybrookecole.com. 

Kate Anthony: And your book. Um, you actually have a giveaway- Yeah … for our listeners today of your book, yes? 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: [00:46:00] Yes. So I’m giving away the free e-book version of my bestselling book, If Only I’d Known, and that really takes you through the A to Z process.

I say it’s like therapy in book form. It really does mirror w- the one-on-one work that I do with clients. And m- you start from understanding narcissistic abuse, finding yourself, and then knowing how to trust yourself and move forward after those relationships. Or even if you’re still in them, knowing how to create a meaningful life within them.

Kate Anthony: Great. And the link for that will be in the show notes. Yes. So everyone can go, um, straight there. It’s in the show notes, guys. Go to the show notes and you can get a free copy of Chelsey’s book, which I obviously highly recommend. This has been an amazing conversation. Chelsey, thank you so much for being here.

I’m just… Yeah, this was great. Thank you. 

Chelsey Brooke Cole: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Kate Anthony: All right, everybody, we will see you next time. And until then, be safe, be happy, and I love you.