Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I think I’m about to bring you a really fun and interesting and insightful conversation. I am joined today by Bea, Beatriz Victoria Albina, nurse practitioner, somatic… Did I say that right? I said it right, right? 

Béa Albina: Nurse practitioner. You got that right. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: No, I got it right. Okay, good.

Béa Albina: Nurse practitioner. Well done. Good job. Well done, Katherine. 

Kate Anthony: Oh my God. 

Béa Albina: See, 

Kate Anthony: I told you this was gonna be fun, you guys. 

Béa Albina: Listen- All right … we’re 12 seconds in. 

Kate Anthony: We’ve got this. We’ve got this. All right. So Bea is a nurse practitioner, somatic experiencing practitioner, master certified life coach, and host of the Feminist Wellness Podcast, hello, and author of End Emotional Outsourcing: How to Overcome Your Codependent, Perfectionist, and People-Pleasing [00:01:00] Habits.

Yes, please. Yes, please. We’re just gonna dive right in because obvi- I could go on about you and what we’re gonna talk about, but I think we should just actually start talking about it. Hi, 

Béa Albina: Bea. Hi. I- I’m so happy to be here … 

Kate Anthony: I am so happy to have you because I feel like this is obviously a topic that most women in the 21st century are extremely familiar with, might have a little shame about, right?

We talk about codependency and these… I fucking hate it, by the way. 

I talk about it all the time. Codependency is not a bad word. I hate people who are like I don’t like to use that word because,” whatever. It’s like giving women a bad name. No let’s name the thing for what it is, and then we can…

then we can extract from it what we need and heal from it, right? We can’t heal from shit we can’t name. 

Béa Albina: Sure. I just think the term has some problematic, like it comes from problematic places. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: And I find that our modern usage of it as a descriptor and an [00:02:00] identity- … is what’s problematic. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. It’s not an identity. No. I remember calling myself a ca- card-carrying codependent once, and my friends were like do you really 

Béa Albina: wanna claim that? Do you wanna-” 

Kate Anthony: And I was like… They were like, “And you’ve been in recovery for that for 20 years, so maybe we can tear up that card.”

And I was like, “Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’s actually not my identity anymore.”

Béa Albina: And then the whole concept of recovery comes out of the disease model, which comes out of the war on drugs, right? And this whole Reaganite, Thatcher, neoliberal, neocon way of looking at the world that was all about fire and brimstone style crime and punishment when it came to drugs and the war on drugs.

Yeah. And so then created this concurrent sort of parallel disease state of the, the codependent long-suffering wife 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yeah. And it’s interesting ’cause I don’t use it that way. I’m- Oh my 

Béa Albina: God, 

Kate Anthony: of course not … I am so in the… And I think this is similar to you, right? [00:03:00] Yeah. And we’ll- I think we’re getting ahead of ourselves, but I don’t care.

Béa Albina: Sure. 

Kate Anthony: I am in the… One of my favorite books is Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody. 

It is all about h- codependency being rooted in trauma. That- Sure … all the roots are in trauma- Sure. Yes … then all this other shit springs from it. 

And it’s at a coping mechanism, it’s our survival, it’s a- mis- and misplaced genius in many cases.

But that it actually points to trauma. 

Béa Albina: That- 100%. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah? Okay. 100%. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Let’s back up. 

Béa Albina: Shall we? 

Kate Anthony: Let’s start with the cons- the core concept here, right? What is emotional outsourcing? Okay. And how do you define it differently from the way we normally talk about, as we said, like codependency, people-pleasing, perfectionism?

Béa Albina: Right on. So emotional outsourcing is when we chronically and habitually source our sense of the three most vital human [00:04:00] needs, safety, belonging, and worth, from everyone and everything outside of ourselves instead of from within, at a great cost to self. And this is my catch-all term for our codependent, perfectionism, people-pleasing habits.

Kate Anthony: Yes, I like the idea that codependency and the people-pleasing, the perfectionism are habits that we’ve adopted. 

Béa Albina: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: That and emotion- and that the sort of the, the core of it is this emotional outsourcing. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Who I am, the interior of this animal, like my, myself, my core being sucks, is no good, is not good enough, not smart enough, not pretty enough da, fa.

Unless you think it is. Do you think it is? That’s right. Do you think I’m okay? Yes. Am I okay? Oh my God, Kate Anthony, are you so mad at me? I’m so sorry. If you don’t approve of me, I collapse. That’s right. Because there’s no self here. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: There’s just self in reflection- against the [00:05:00] mirror of other people, achievement, buying the house, and the kid, and the corner office, and the thing, and the…

Kate Anthony: yes. That’s right. Yes. That’s right. That’s right. We do… We… if you’re okay, if you’re okay with me, I’m okay. 

Béa Albina: Sure. 

Kate Anthony: If you’re not okay with me, I am- Ah … I am nothing. Same. Yeah.

There’s nothing 

Béa Albina: here. 

Kate Anthony: And not just not o- It’s also I remember in my darkest times in my 20s when I was so just consumed by this. Sure. It was if I didn’t have a, a mirror to reflect- myself to me, I didn’t exist and I was in a panic. I couldn’t, which is wh- where I couldn’t be alone. Literally couldn’t be alone.

I would have a panic attack if I didn’t have plans for the night. 

Because then what? 

What- 

… 

Kate Anthony: What did I do? But more importantly who was I? I didn’t, I did not know what to do with myself 

Béa Albina: We talk a lot with my clients about how we end up dating people or in relat- like in [00:06:00] relationships with people, or friendships or careers because I don’t know, they liked me.

That, 

Kate Anthony: that’s right. That’s right. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. I don’t know. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: And whether we like them- Yes … in any way is, it- Not 

Kate Anthony: relevant. 

Béa Albina: It doesn’t even cross our minds, right? 

Kate Anthony: No. 

Béa Albina: Because being our own North Star is conceptually impossible. 

We haven’t conceived of it. 100%. I could matter? Get outta here. 

Kate Anthony: But also, like, when someone says “You could be your own North Star,” it didn’t compute because- What?

It was empty. 

Béa Albina: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: There wasn’t anything there. 

So what’s my North Star?

Béa Albina: What, 

Kate Anthony: who- … how? 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And then of course, I was in an industry, I was an actor for 30 years, right? Where everything was about, m- my worth was only about do you like me, did you hire me?

Let me be a chameleon for you. Dating… I remember also a ther- my therapist when I got divorced, and I [00:07:00] was like, reeling and of course dating immediately because- 

Béa Albina: Of course … 

Kate Anthony: what else was I gonna do? 

And I was dating really horrible people. 

Béa Albina: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: And all I could talk about was whether or not they liked me, and she was like- Yeah

“Do you like him?” 

Béa Albina: And 

Kate Anthony: I was like I… What? What?” 

Béa Albina: Is this thing on? Does this thing- Does 

Kate Anthony: this… Wait, what? 

Béa Albina: What? Where am I? What? 

Kate Anthony: Who are you? 

Béa Albina: Wait. What’s going on? I don’t think so. And I- That’s a rude question. 

Rude. I hope you fired her immediately or sooner- Immediately. She was like- … and got a full refund.

Kate Anthony: She was like- Yeah … “May I suggest taking your own temperature?” Fair. And I was 

Béa Albina: like- May I suggest effing off? ‘Cause that’s r- no I had a mentor that was, like, sort of the final straw towards my divorce- … when I just was going on and on how I just wanted my partner to respect me. And he goes, “Girl, do you respect yourself right now?

Is this what you respecting you looks like?” 

Kate Anthony: Ouch. 

Béa Albina: Ow. Ouch. You 

Kate Anthony: fired that friend, 

Béa Albina: right? Rude rude. Get outta here. But yeah, like [00:08:00] I obviously didn’t know what respecting myself looked like or maybe would have done it. 

Kate Anthony: That’s the thing- Maybe … right? Like- 

… 

Kate Anthony: We say this, right? These are all wonderful words, right?

You gotta love yourself first. Fuck you, what? 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I don’t know what that means. What is respecting- Yep … myself? mean? What does that look like? If I’ve never if we’re talking about rooted in trauma, and this is all a reflection of everything that we came from how do we give people the roadmap for what that actually is?

Béa Albina: So there’s two pathways in that I see. One is somatic, and the other, w- I’m gonna, I’m gonna share what I’m workshopping with you. You ready? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, I’m all 

Béa Albina: about it. So I’ve been writing this piece for maybe a year- 

Kate Anthony: Oh … 

Béa Albina: about the TV show Veep. Stay with me. 

Kate Anthony: Which I’ve never seen. Damn it. Okay. C- can 

Béa Albina: you?

I know. Okay, we’re gonna pause this interview. I’m gonna go watch. Go watch 17 seasons. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: Then come on back. Okay, good. Same [00:09:00] time next week. All right. Don’t even sleep or mow the lawn. Okay, so w- it can be any show where the folks are, like, extremely direct with each other. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: In Veep, they treat each other terribly, so it’s- like an outlier, extreme version of direct communication. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: But even Four Seasons. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, love it. 

Béa Albina: We were watching it last night, and, like- Yeah … there are some points where I was like, “Oh, that is s- stellar modeling of direct communication.” 

And so I work with somatic pathways and help people to start building this capacity to know who you are from within, and we really can use media as a- way to source models. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: And I think it’s a really intelligent way to use… If you’re gonna watch TV anyway, or movies anyway, or read books anyway- 

… 

Béa Albina: Go on a hunt for good modeling. 

Kate Anthony: Ah. 

Béa Albina: Families where they actually talk to each other with love, right? Or friendships where they’re kind to each other, and start to train your eye.

So when we think about the reticular activating [00:10:00] system and the default mode network in the brain, they’re two of our go autopilot default machineries- Okay … if you will- 

Kate Anthony: Okay … 

Béa Albina: that decide how we see the world based on how we have seen the world, ’cause the brain is using predictive models all the time.

And so to your point, if the only model we have is bleh- What? Yeah. What? So I really recommend that we start watching shows, et cetera- 

… 

Béa Albina: Looking for a new model- 

… 

Béa Albina: As a way to train the brain that it’s possible. 

Kate Anthony: Interesting. 

Béa Albina: Old-school Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, Anne with an E. Like, if we…

it’s not too hard to find things. Where people are truly kind, right? Even Saved by the Bell. I’m sure there’s something great in there, she says, not having seen it in 30 years. I mean- But you know what? I’ve 

Kate Anthony: never watched it, ’cause as we established before we hit record, I’m an old-ass broad, and was not raised by, on Saved by the Bell.

I was too old for that. I was applying to college by then. I’m 79. 

Béa Albina: Okay, whatever. All 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Béa Albina: But [00:11:00] you’re cool, ’cause you’re full Gen X, and I’m a Zillennial. A Zillennial? Rub it 

Kate Anthony: in. I 

Béa Albina: didn’t know that was a thing. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, it’s so great. Oh, that’s 

Béa Albina: so cute. So we had no internet growing up. It was before- Right

computers. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: But Mikey down the street had an el- a, a Mac LE 2 in the basement that took 20 minutes to start up. Oh, wow. Computers existed, but it wasn’t the vibe. And so yeah, we’re the Zillenials. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, we just didn’t- I think 

Béa Albina: we’re the luckiest … 

Kate Anthony: they just didn’t… We had Apple 2es.

That was, like- 

… 

Kate Anthony: That was, like, starting up. 

Béa Albina: What a fancy computer. What a- 8 bit … 

Kate Anthony: weird, what a weird life. I was thinking about recently just the the spectrum of stuff that we were born without- Yeah. Oh … and what the, oh my God, and what’s happened now. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Ugh, anyway. Yeah. It’s Bananotrons.

I’m just really grateful there’s no photos of my college experiences. Dude. Or they’re, like, all negatives in someone’s mom’s attic- Yeah. Oh, yeah … in Cleveland or something. 

Kate Anthony: 100%. But- 100%. There are- [00:12:00] Yeah … some photos. 

Béa Albina: Sure. But- 

Kate Anthony: But I actually know who has them. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And I know where they are, and- Right

and it’s fine. And you could get- I’m not threatened. Yeah. 

Béa Albina: You could get them burned at any moment. Totally. You could be like, “Hi. Burn those negatives.” Yeah. Done. Burn that shit. We’re so lucky. 

Kate Anthony: I know, we’re so lucky. Back to, okay. We were talking- Modeling … modeling. Yes. The models that we have. Do you have a list?

Do you have a cheat sheet of TV shows that you think- No, but 

Béa Albina: I should. 

Kate Anthony: You really should. 

Béa Albina: Coming soon. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, you really should. List… 

Béa Albina: A ch- yeah, that would be brilliant. Okay. L- we’ll put that together. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: And I’ll 

Kate Anthony: send it to you. 

Béa Albina: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: we just started watching Hacks this week. So we’re still on season- Oh

one of Hacks, and I- 

Béa Albina: Wow … 

Kate Anthony: feel like- They’re great models of, like- Yeah … really bad communication. Like- Yes … oh no, 

Béa Albina: no. 

Kate Anthony: And yet also- 

Béa Albina: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: I think there are gr- some great models in there of, using humor with lo- just the love and the dir- and the directness, direct comm- I’m a huge direct communicator person.

I th- I like that. I like some of the relationships in [00:13:00] that and how great they are. Yeah.

Béa Albina: It’s so beautiful. Ugh. 

Kate Anthony: I love it. We’re still… We just finished season one, so we’re very far behind. So okay, but let’s go back to the, something else you were talking about. Yeah. The somatic experiencing.

Yes. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And the, and our brains using predictive models. This is our brains being, like, an AI predictive text kind of situation, right? So what can we learn from that? What ex- t- say more. 

Béa Albina: B- by the time we’re old-ass broads, we have this story about who we are, what the world is, what happens when, who other people are, what matters, and those stories won’t change unless you actively go change them, right?

You’re going to keep… Beliefs are just thoughts that you’ve thought again, and again, and maybe they don’t actually… The wellspring is not your own mind, but you heard your dad say it 40 times, or your school principal, or whatever. When your brain was in its most formative- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Béa Albina: you came to have this [00:14:00] understanding based on your socialization, your conditioning, your culture, your religion, your 

Kate Anthony: ba, ba- … 

Béa Albina: of what life is. So you grew up in Manhattan. You’re a direct communicator, ’cause that’s how New York does. 

Kate Anthony: That’s how New York does. 

Béa Albina: You know what I mean?

Like- Yeah … I grew up in the great state of Rhode Island. We’re also gonna tell you what’s what. And so we have this story, and so then we meet the whole world, and we ca- when we connect those stories about how things should be and how we need to be loved, to be cared for, to be safe, to be protected in the world- and it meets up with the real world- And we don’t have a model for loving ourselves through it. 

There… It just leads to a lot of pain, and a lot of frustration, and a lot of suffering, right? 

Kate Anthony: It can. Yeah. Yeah. It really does. It really does. Yeah. What… Yeah, and when we don’t have… I often talk about w- the example that I use is if somebody came to me and was like, “You have green hair,” and I’m really fucking clear that I don’t have- Yeah

green hair. 

Béa Albina: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: It doesn’t bother me that they think- … I have green hair. Yeah. ‘Cause I [00:15:00] think that maybe there’s something wrong with their vision, and I’m like- 

Béa Albina: Sure …

Kate Anthony: my hair’s actually not green.” “But okay.” 

Right? And that’s the level of clarity we want for who we are in the world, so that when someone says, “You’re not good enough,” or implies- Yeah

in some way that there’s something faulty with us that we know damn well is not faulty- 

… 

Kate Anthony: That we can have that same reaction. Yeah, no, I actually am not. That’s actually not true about me.” 

Béa Albina: Not true. Yeah. And so too, when we try to do things like set boundaries with boomers. 

Or right?

Or other dangerous activities, right? Yeah. Set a limit. Try to say what’s real to someone. 

And they come back with a kind of- pushback we often get. You’re being mean, you’re too sensitive. Those character judgments. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: When you know your character- 

Kate Anthony: That’s right … 

Béa Albina: you’re unflappable.

You’re, y- nope. Nope. Yeah. I’m not being too [00:16:00] sensitive. Yeah. I’m being the level of sensitive I am, and I hear you that’s challenging for you. 

Kate Anthony: That may not work for you. But, 

Béa Albina: But. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: But that there’s nothing wrong with me. I think, what I love about, to go back to Veep, is, and again, I just wanna say it very clearly, they are too mean.

I am not saying we should be that mean. But they are very present. 

And so it’s this really great example of witty quickness- 

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Béa Albina: … That can only come from profound presence. 

Yeah. So for me, it’s like a blending of Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Buddhism. 

Right?

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Béa Albina: You can achieve Veep’s level of cutting sarcasm and cutting cruelty, which is not the goal, when you’re, like, so embodied- … and grounded in yourself. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: And that’s the what somatics offers us. Did you like how I went all the way around in this wild circle to come back to somatics?

‘Cause I was kinda proud of it. 

Kate Anthony: No, it was great. It was great.

Béa Albina: Thank you. I really appreciate that. 

Kate Anthony: That’s the point of it, right? Is grounding yourself in the [00:17:00] present, in this moment. And so how do you, when you talk about somatics, like it- Yeah … it’s buzz, it’s a buzzword now, right? So annoying.

And we’re all talking about it. But so 

Béa Albina: great. Yeah, 

Kate Anthony: for sure. So what, when you talk about it it’s a practice, right? You’re a practitioner. It’s not just like we talk about somatics. It’s actually you have to do something.

Béa Albina: It’s true. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. So how do you work with women, people on somatic experiencing?

Béa Albina: Yeah, right on. So I’ll define the term for us. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: There we go. 

Béa Albina: Soma comes from the Greek. It means body. Somatics are practices that bring us back into awareness, presence, connection with the body- However that happens. So what we’re seeing a lot out there is somatic workouts, right? Somatic exercises.

It’s a bit of a, It’s just using the word in its hype this moment. You know what I mean? It’s just using it as a buzzword. It’s silly to talk about somatic workouts. 

Kate Anthony: Exercise. 

Béa Albina: [00:18:00] Yeah. Because that’s what it is. If it- It’s redundant, 

Kate Anthony: isn’t it? 

Béa Albina: It is redundant in a way that’s annoying because somatic practices can be so profoundly life-changing.

The point of somatic practice is not simply to do some movement and expect the movement to change your life. 

But rather to find new ways to be present with yourself- 

… 

Béa Albina: That help you connect in with your essence. 

Connect, help you connect in with your truth, help your body to really move through whatever it’s holding and bracing so that you can be in presence.

Instead of being in those stories we were talking about, those veneers between ourselves and the world of, “If she doesn’t like me, I’m doomed. If he doesn’t think I’m pretty, if they don’t think I’m smart, if they’re mad at me.” All those veneers keep us from being with ourself, ’cause then you’re never actually in the moment.

You’re just worried about the past, projecting it onto the present, and then projecting doom into the future.[00:19:00] 

Kate Anthony: I wanna go back to your definitions. I’ve seen you, I’ve se- I’ve heard you define these a few times, and I wanted you to do it here as well, right? The differences between codependency, people-pleasing, and perfectionism. How do they differ? How are they the same? How… They’re obviously rooted, as you say, like they are emotional outsourcing.

But how do the… Yeah, what’s the, how do you define them? 

Béa Albina: So codependent habits is the habit of managing other people to attempt to feel safe. People-pleasing is attempting to keep others comfortable to avoid rejection. And perfectionist habit is controlling yourself, your capital S self, right?

Tamping down your authenticity and controlling how you present, what you say, what you think, what you feel, how your body is, to attempt to earn love. And these are all survival habits, right? They are brilliant, amazing, genius, incredible ways that we learn to secure safety, belonging, and worth from [00:20:00] outside when doing that felt like, or actually was, the only option.

Yes. Exactly. There was like, what else were you gonna do but be the good girl? 

Yeah. Like- Yeah … help mom in the kitchen while the boys go watch soccer or football or whatever. Man, 

Kate Anthony: do you re- Because that was the way we got love, right? That was 

Béa Albina: it. 100%. 

Kate Anthony: That was… Yes. 

Béa Albina: Do you remember the teacher putting the loud, obnoxious boy with one of the best girls in class so that she could help keep him in line?

Kate Anthony: Oh, God. No- You remember … because I went to an all-girls school, but- Ugh, 

Béa Albina: that’s amazing. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Lucky 

Béa Albina: ducky. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, we… Well- 

Béa Albina: I remember that happening. There was, like, a quiet, good girl in my class who always got the most obnoxious boy- ‘

Kate Anthony: Cause it’s 

Béa Albina: her- … as homework … ’cause it’s girl’s- It’s her 

Kate Anthony: job

responsibility to take…

Béa Albina: yes, it is. 

Okay? 

Kate Anthony: Of course. Yeah. It’s women’s responsibility- It- … to take care of men and,

Béa Albina: 100%. Of course. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Béa Albina: they’re morons, and it’s our problem and our fault. What? Ugh. Ugh, ugh. Ugh. 

Kate Anthony: Ugh. Yeah, [00:21:00] ugh. 

Béa Albina: And so- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Béa Albina: whatever that story that you got in childhood, right?

You carry that through. That’s what we were talking about with the, the, those two brain regions, the reticular activating system and the default mode network. Those are those stories that carry throughout your life un- until you pause and change them and say “Basta.

Kate Anthony: No more Tell me more sci- about the science, ’cause I like the nerdy science, and I know you do, too, about those two brain regions.

Béa Albina: Yeah. What do you wanna know? 

Kate Anthony: I don’t know. What do they do? What’s, what are the differences? Are they the same? Are they different? What… 

Béa Albina: The default mode network, the DMN, it is… It gets really active when the brain is at rest or when we’re doing important things like daydreaming, which I think, we won’t get too distracted, but I think daydreaming gets a really bad rap.

Kate Anthony: Oh. 

Béa Albina: Yeah, so when your brain’s at rest, it’s telling the story about what you are and what life is. It’s like the adaptive unconscious, in a way. The reticular activating system, it filters in all the sensory inputs that are [00:22:00] coming in- 

Kate Anthony: Oh … 

Béa Albina: and it decides what’s important. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, interesting. 

Béa Albina: It decides- what matters- … what’s real. And it tells you whose attention matters, right? Whose care matters what stories are real enough. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: Those kind of things. 

Kate Anthony: Gotcha. 

Béa Albina: Okay … and the default mode network, it’s like a constellation of parts of the brain and we’re, in a lot of ways, just starting to understand the depth of it.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: And the depth of how it controls how we experience life. The DMN also retrieves encoded information from the past. Oh. And it uses it to to decide what’s worth putting into longer term learning and memory. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, okay. Yeah 

Béa Albina: And so how that is relevant here- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Béa Albina: is because I often hear, so many times I’ll, I hear clients say, “I know what to do.

I know my patterns. I [00:23:00] know where they come from. I could create… I’m in my 40s and 50s, I can create a PowerPoint of my trauma, but I’m still dating the same kind of schmucks. I’m putting up with the same BS in my marriage. I’m…” You know what I mean? I, my life is not changing- Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yep … 

Béa Albina: even though I have this learning and memory- 

Kate Anthony: You have all this information.

… 

Béa Albina: Because I can’t actually activate it. I can’t actually take action on it to change my life. And that’s where we bring somatic experiencing in, right? To look at how are you bracing the body? How are you relating through the soma, through the body, to the world as it comes at you? 

And are you able to, again, breathe into present so you can say something different, choose something different, experience life differently instead of in the old way that you learned in the ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s growing up?

Kate Anthony: Yes. And I think that’s a lot of my listeners are in that place- Okay … of this [00:24:00] m- marriage is toxic, this relationship is toxic. 

Béa Albina: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: I- I’ve been in therapy, I get it, I understand- yeah … all the way through, but I don’t know how then… and also as a coach I think y- we have this, a similar- 

Béa Albina: Right

Kate Anthony: backgrounds in this where it’s like, yes, that’s where our favorite clients, like the best, most effective c- clients for a coach are people who are like, “I’ve been in therapy for years. I totally get all that shit.” As you said “I could write the fucking book on it. What the fuck do I do now?” Yep. Right?

Yeah. “I get it. Now what do I do?” That’s where coaching comes in, ’cause we can- For sure … we can guide that. 

Béa Albina: We can help that, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: It’s that I’m in this toxic relationship. I have always been in toxic relationships, maybe. 

Or this is what I know, or my identity has been consumed by this person, by this relationship, by motherhood, by like all of the things, right?

And I know it’s not working, but I don’t know what else to do. 

Béa Albina: Totally. 

Kate Anthony: [00:25:00] I know it can’t be this But I don’t know what that is 

Béa Albina: And that’s why I recommend that we start with the smallest step humanly possible- 

… 

Béa Albina: To begin to rebuild our ability to hear ourselves. 

So we’re all born with this inner signal of discernment, of want, of need, and of discernment, right?

Like anyone who’s ever met a baby knows that they have a preferred way of being held. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

They have- And a preferred person to hold them, right? For 

Béa Albina: sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a preferred way to be fed and to be burped and to be everything. That’s not universal. It’s that creature’s preferences, that creature’s inner voice, that creature’s inner knowing, and it just gets squashed pretty quickly in our socialization and conditioning, right?

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: And so we need to be able to hear that signal again. And I start here because when I say to people, “You need to hear it again,” they’re like, “What? [00:26:00] No, I never had an intuition. I never had discernment.” But, like, when your diaper was wet, you fucking screamed about it. Like- 

Kate Anthony: That’s right … 

Béa Albina: duh. That’s 

Kate Anthony: right.

Béa Albina: And so- 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Yep … 

Béa Albina: we need to get back to that level of basic- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Béa Albina: because, how many women do you know who don’t pee when they have to pee? Yes. It- so it’s at this level of our biological impulses, eat, pee, rest. 

Resting. Get the hell out of town. Eating. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Béa Albina: Eating. 

Kate Anthony: Eating, resting,

Béa Albina: right? Being a mammal. And so we need to take tiny steps towards listening to this internal voice. At first, we do it without the intention of taking action. ‘Cause I think it’s actually way too much to ask a nervous system that’s awash in emotional outsourcing habits to okay, you heard this podcast.

Tomorrow, every time you need to rest, go lie down for an hour. Fuck off. Fuck off. What are you talking [00:27:00] about? 

Oh, do we… what’d you hit the lotto? You don’t live under capitalism? Okay. Good 

Kate Anthony: for you. 

Béa Albina: Yeah, good for you, but tough luck. I actually have a job, and the C train was late, and I don’t know anything right now, right?

Add- … perimenopause, menopause brain to it all. Go to hell. 

Kate Anthony: Go to hell. So- That’s right … 

Béa Albina: go to 

Kate Anthony: hell. And I have a three-year-old running around the house screaming bloody murder. But I’m gonna go rest for an hour, sure. 

Béa Albina: That sounds great. That sounds great. Okay, great. Fine. Okay. Alternately, instead of just hating the two of us, and every bro podcaster that tells you to wake up at 4:00 in the morning, right?

I recommend that we take kitten steps. 

And I want you to actually picture a newborn kitten’s teeny-ass little paw. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, 

Béa Albina: little baby 

Kate Anthony: beans. ‘

Béa Albina: Cause a baby step is like that, Kate, that’s three, three inches. It’s too fucking big. 

Kate Anthony: Okay. So we get- Forget about it … little toe beans. Little itty bitty toe beans.

Just

Béa Albina: little itty bitty toe beans, and you take the tiniest step. So if your body screams, “Girl, [00:28:00] rest,” and you’re like, “But the things,” you just say, “Heard.” 

And take one breath. 

When your body says pee, I want you to actually pee, but whatever you can’t- We can pee. 

… 

Béa Albina: Heard.

But then act- please don’t get a UTI. Go pee as soon as you can. But you see what we’re doing here?

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: We’re layering on the tiniest movement towards the beginning of contemplating considering maybe potentially eventually taking action. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. I love it.

Béa Albina: A- and this is from a recognition that anything that smells like danger to the brain- Yeah

is gonna flip you the fuck out. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: So don’t do it. Don’t do it. I’m not out here trying to add 200 things to be mad at yourself about to your list of things to already be mad at yourself about. Don’t put more on the list to fail about. 

What… Why do- don’t do that. 

Instead, let yourself succeed in these tiniest of ways, right?

Just, all right, body heard. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: And so then [00:29:00] once that’s feeling second nature, you can actually start to take action. The end game of that maybe looks like your living room doesn’t have to look like it’s, you’re in Architectural Digest at every moment. Maybe sometimes we need to lower our standards for the things that suck our energy- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Béa Albina: and raise our standards for how we’re being treated. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. 

Béa Albina: So then how do we know what we even want is the concurrent question I get, right? That’s cute, but moment to moment, I don’t know what I want, what I need. Ah, who am I? 

And so I highly recommend three times a day, set a little alarm on your phone, have it dingle at you, and then pause Take a breath And ask yourself what you’re feeling.

And when your brain goes, “Oh my God, I don’t know. What am I feeling? I don’t know. I feel like everyone’s mad at me and I feel like I have 4,000 things to do and I don’t know. I just don’t…” What? You go into these moments expecting that response, so it’s not a shock. 

And you can have a phrase ready “Oh, my brain is [00:30:00] doing its thing.

My brain’s just braining, okay? Wha- whatever.” 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: And don’t expect anything else of yourself, but it- know that in each of these times when you turn towards yourself and say, “What am I feeling?” Regardless of the answer, you’re showing yourself that, to go back to the top of the show, you can be your own North Star your wants, your desires, your, it can be the most important thing in your life.

And you can only… One of the key lessons of somatics is that knowing stuff doesn’t really change stuff, but experiencing the world differently actually changes your nervous system. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yes. 

I think of these moments of asking yourself, just like the checking in and the, is that you’re building trust within yourself, and this is the like teaching yourself that like actually you care, right?

Oh, I care. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Building that tr- that trust within myself to, to just [00:31:00] notice, to just show myself that I actually give a shit how I feel. Even if I don’t know. Yeah. Even if I can’t identify a feeling. Sure. Yeah. Because, you know- Yeah … I was one of those people that was sent to therapy and given like a, a list ’cause I was like, “I don’t…”

No fucking idea. People were like how are, how do you feel?” And I’d go, “Good.” 

Béa Albina: Good. Okay. Fine. 

Kate Anthony: Fine. 

Béa Albina: Fine. 

Kate Anthony: F- okay. And they were like, “Here’s a list of feelings. Do you identify with any of them?” And I was like, “Oh.” 

Béa Albina: No, I don’t know. 

Kate Anthony: What? What? 

I don’t- 

Béa Albina: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: okay. 

Béa Albina: That- Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: maybe that one. Yeah. Right?

Béa Albina: Maybe, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Maybe the feelings wheel. But just even the stopping to a- I think to your point, like the, the baby toe beans is like just stopping to ask the question to, is fucking radical. 

Béa Albina: It’s fucking radical ’cause it’s conceptually so foreign to us. 

Kate Anthony: Especially people like me or, with, raised by boomers or my mom was like that- Listen

in between. What are they called? Anyway. 

Béa Albina: Silent Generation. 

Kate Anthony: The Silent Generation. My in-laws are Silent Generation. Yes. Yeah. [00:32:00] Whoa. The I was not raised- 

Béa Albina: Nope … 

Kate Anthony: with, by somebody who ever asked how I was, what I wanted- Yeah … how I felt. Yeah. None of it, right? Everything was prescribed. 

And, I have a very strong memory of, I was 30, and my mom took me to Rome for my 30th birthday for a qu- a weekend, like a long weekend, and I was on a, we were on a tour bus and it, and I was like, “Oh my God,” I was like, “I’m so cold. I’m gonna have to go back. Before we go to dinner, I’m gonna have to stop at the hotel to pick up my jacket.”

And she goes, “It’s not cold.” And I was like- … and at 30 finally, I was like, “I, separate person from you- … feel cold.” 

And that was like, fucking radical because as a child, then I, what I internalized was if I feel cold [00:33:00] but it’s not cold, then there’s something wrong with me- Yeah … that I’m feeling something that doesn’t exist apparently, right?

And that’s on me. 

Béa Albina: 100%. And that’s how- 

Kate Anthony: 100% … that’s how we disconnect from ourselves so much, right? It’s like we’re gaslit into disbelieving ourselves, right? That like, oh, my feelings are not correct. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Th- and there thereby is some 100% correct way to feel. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Béa Albina: Which is a boomer secret that you cannot know about.

Oh, that’s right. The great unknowable. That’s right. … Funny enough, when you started that sentence, I was not raised, I thought you were gonna stop there. Because 

Kate Anthony: I- yes.

Béa Albina: Yes … I feel like that’s so our experience. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Gen X latchkey kid like- 

Béa Albina: Yo … 

Kate Anthony: I was not I… Exactly. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Except I really wa- I was, I raised be- It’s interesting. That’s such a fascinating word. 

Béa Albina: It is a fascinating 

Kate Anthony: word. Because- 

Béa Albina: What does it even mean? … 

Kate Anthony: What does it even mean? [00:34:00] Because I was… There was so much dominance and control in the way that I was raised- Sure … that like like prescribed feelings, like not…

Like I, I was, there was zero sense of self, capital S self, fostered in me from a very- … young age, right? 

So when I had to do that searching and that work, I was like, it was like this vacant thing, right? That the somatics- Yeah … is as you say, ’cause that’s the way in. Like that was the- Yeah

when I started doing that yoga with that, you know- 

Béa Albina: Dude. The gentleman Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: The gentleman, the Indian gentleman That was where it was like, oh, like I started to tap in. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

And it’s through that tapping in that so much of self is revealed that we never could have connected with- Yeah

by staying in our minds. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. We’re stinky 

Béa Albina: thinking. ‘Cause we have to remember the story, the meaning-making machine story of who we are, is never actually our own story because of the ways brain works, right? It’s always [00:35:00] the machine of the default mode network, the machine of our conditioning, and our socialization, and the stories of how our bodies should be, how our relationships should be.

But the body can tell you a really different story through posture, through bracing. And it sounds esoteric until you get it, and you can feel the shift within your own life. 

Kate Anthony: So in your book- 

Béa Albina: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: how does this all sort of unfold in the, in your book? First of all, is it a book for all people, for women, for all people, for women?

I 

Béa Albina: think it’s for all people, and I focus on the experience of humans socialized as women, ’cause that’s my experience. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Same. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Right on. 

Kate Anthony: I can’t write a book about bro culture. I’m sorry. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. I’m, I am fully unaware, and I- don’t, I can’t help you with that. No. Directly. 

Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. We can help you get out. 

Béa Albina: We can…

Kate Anthony: and then is this for… let’s say my audience, right? This is women who are really in toxic and abusive relationships. Oh my 

Béa Albina: [00:36:00] God, 

Kate Anthony: yes. So much of their identities- 

Béa Albina: Yeah

Kate Anthony: have been, h- however they got here, have been co-opted by seeking safety through, walking on eggshells or r- right, tiptoeing around and, or tap dancing for approval, whatever it is, right? Whatever the codependent people-pleasing all, of it all. So tell me h- how does the book help them? How will this- 

Béa Albina: Yeah

Kate Anthony: help them? So 

Béa Albina: the first half of the book is all about setting the stage and talking about why I problematize those terms. … I am a codependent person. It talks about the war on drugs, the disease model. It talks about the sociopolitical realities of all of these frameworks for living our lives and thinking about ourselves, and really helps to shift us- into understanding, like we’ve been talking about these- Yeah … the survival [00:37:00] selves. And so then in part two, I offer two frameworks, two pathways for making change. Real, lasting, sustainable change, ’cause we go so slowly, which I know is so annoying. 

Kate Anthony: So annoying. 

Chop, chop. Just let’s- Let’s get this done

Béa Albina: g- get it done. I’m a New Yorker- I want the magic- … 

Kate Anthony: what the fuck? 

Béa Albina: Let’s go. Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Béa Albina: Faster. Let’s go. Yeah. And so those two pathways are through thought work, using a CBT sort of framework to- … look at mindset. Okay. Which I think is really important, ’cause if you continue to think shitty thoughts, you’re gonna continue to have a life that feels shitty.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Béa Albina: B- because science. And somatics, which I think is incredibly vital because the new story doesn’t really stick- 

… 

Béa Albina: Until the body believes it, and you can- … hold that posture. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. Yep. 

Béa Albina: Yeah, and so I outline the science. I use the model of the polyvagal theory with the caveat that it’s not the most science-y of nerdy science.

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Béa Albina: But I think it’s a really nice metaphor, and so I use it- Yeah. … [00:38:00] Metaphorically, and then I outline how to do thought work- 

… 

Béa Albina: And give journals. There’s journal prompts throughout. There’s a whole- Great … guide to how to do it. Love it … and there’s tools like mapping your nervous system- 

Which I think are incredibly important because most of us don’t know I’m getting a little grumpy. I’m getting a little activated. This is starting to bother me. We don’t recognize the low-level, s- oh, I’m starting to check out. I’m starting to dissociate. I’m starting to disconnect. We don’t recognize our nervous system is talking to us- 

Kate Anthony: Right

Béa Albina: until we’re, like- Until it’s screaming … throwing up weight. Exactly. Yeah. Until we’re screaming.

Or till we’re, like, so collapsed on the couch that we don’t know what’s going on. Yeah. And so I think this book is perfect for your audience because- Yeah. I hope so too … I have been your audience.

And I wrote the book I wish I had- Yeah … back when I was in a shitty, abusive marriage. 

I wish that I had had- I wish that I had this book 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yes yeah The same with my book. It’s exactly the same. Like- 

Béa Albina: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: [00:39:00] yeah, all the information. And I, and I appreciate, my audience will appreciate that in your book and I do the same thing in my book, is that we put it through the lens of the…

let’s take the… It’s let’s take the onus off of the self for the shit- Yes … that is capitalism, that is… being, growing up in the, the latter part of the 20th century into this fucking shit show. We can’t divorce thi- this, the system, the systemic oppression- Correct. Yes … from what we’re a- what we’re experiencing.

Béa Albina: 100%. And I, that’s what I really problematize about- … a lot of other frameworks- … that talk about I don’t know, for example, defects of character. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: My character was never defective. My char- the problem is I thought my character was defective. 

That’s what led me to- Exactly … stay with an asshole who was treating me like crap.

Kate Anthony: Bea is trying to not name 12-step programs 

Béa Albina: [00:40:00] directly. She’s not doing a great job, but she did not do it, so there’s that. And I’m like, listen, if it… Okay, great. If it got you sober and it saved your life- 100% … that’s amazing. I’m not talking about your pro- That’s right I’m talking about the one that’s for me.

And the one that’s for me led me to feel worse and worse about myself- Interesting … and led me into more shame- … and more guilt. 

Kate Anthony: Interesting. Interesting, ’cause it actually saved me. I love that we’re having this conversation, right? Great. ‘Cause it totally fucking saved me. I also… I see I do see- Yeah

a lot of the, like- if I can j- if I’ll just take responsibility, and take responsibility, and I’ll- … continue to take responsibility- 

… 

Kate Anthony: And not name the fact that actually I’m… The things that I am trying to take responsibility for are literally not mine because I’m- Not mine

actually being abused. 

Yes.

Béa Albina: That’s the crux of what I’m saying- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Béa Albina: is it’s this… It’s a really old program. 

Kate Anthony: It is from- 1939 … 

many… 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I know. Many moons ago. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: And in most places has not been updated. 

And we do [00:41:00] not talk- Yes … about politics.

We do not talk about social context. That’s right. I get it that they don’t want fistfights in the room, but I don’t think that there’s a single thing in life that is apolitical. 

Kate Anthony: Agree. 

Béa Albina: So there’s that. But- 

Kate Anthony: There is that. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: We could do this all fucking day. 

Béa Albina: All fucking day. Look at us. 

Kate Anthony: We should definitely have you back on to talk more about- I’d love it

these things. But- 

Béa Albina: I’d love it … 

Kate Anthony: Bea, tell everyone where they can find you, where they can- Yeah … find your work, where they can buy your book. Yeah. All the things. 

Béa Albina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you can get the book wherever books are sold. I highly recommend your local independent bookseller. We need them, especially now in the age of fascism, more and more.

Yes. Jeff Bezos does not need your money. 

Kate Anthony: No, he does 

Béa Albina: not. No. Vote with your dollars. You can find my work on my website, Beatriz, B-E-A-T-R-I-Z albina.com. I give good ‘gram @beatrizvictoriaalbinanp. I did the whole name. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna- You can’t undo it. You just gotta move forward. [00:42:00] You just gotta move forward.

And my show is called Feminist Wellness, and it is free wherever you get your shows. 

Kate Anthony: Amazing. Bea, thank you so much. This has been awesome and fun. 

Béa Albina: So fun. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Béa Albina: You’re wicked smart. 

Kate Anthony: You’re my people. 

Béa Albina: It’s really a… it was a blast. Thanks again. 

Kate Anthony: Thank you.