Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I am really happy to have with me today, Shell Cartmell. Shell helps people find their footing when life looks different than they expected. As a next chapter transition specialist coaching since 2007, she guides men and women through divorce, grief, broken relationships, and the longing for a fuller life.

As a certified trauma-informed master coach with multiple advanced certifications, Shell brings a practical how-to approach that goes beyond conversation. She equips clients to quiet the spiral, trust their own judgment, and break old patterns using tools like emotional regulation, breathwork, and embodiment work.

Shell is the author of the book Spider on My Neck, which was released in July, and we are going to talk about the book, the story, your [00:01:00] experiences. Shell, thank you for being here. I’m so happy to have you. 

Chel Cartmill: Oh, thank you, Kate. It is such a pleasure. I’m excited to talk with you and see what unfolds over this, these next few minutes together.

So thanks for having me. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being here. So I kinda just wanted to first just give you an opportunity to give the brief, the CliffsNotes of your story and what brought you to this work, and what your book, Spider on My Neck, is really about. 

Chel Cartmill: It’s a journey, right?

Everyone has their story and their journey, and mine began with, wanting the happily ever after with the, the family and the kids and the career and the whole life and the dreams. And I found myself in, a lot of it’s in the book, but basically it’s a story of deception.

I say deception, betrayal, and learning to trust your intuition. And mine started with- … getting… yeah. Your 

Kate Anthony: deception- Getting- Your, the level of deception and betrayal that you experienced is I always say to my clients look, there are, especially in my group programs [00:02:00] where you’ve got people with varying degrees of deception and betrayal and, I always say look, there are, there, there’s narcissistic abuse, and then there is coercive control and the sort of manipulation that borders on, or in your case, I think, steps fully into the realm of sociopathic- 

… 

Kate Anthony: Intentionality. Yeah. There’s betrayal and deception, like I experienced in my marriage with, multiple, many years of infidelity and emotional abuse really born out of my ex-husband’s narcissistic wound, right?

And then there’s sociopaths who are actually intentionally trying to harm you. 

Chel Cartmill: Yes. Yeah 

Kate Anthony: Which is where you are. 

Chel Cartmill: I was, thankfully, right? Yes, 

Kate Anthony: you were. Yes. You were, you are- Yes … you are no longer- I came through … but you were, yeah. So anyway, yes, so go on. Do go on. [00:03:00] 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. And really it’s, you have that and y- typically, talking about divorce on your show and talking about divorce, and I specialize in that.

However it’s across the board, and in this particular case it’s a friend, even- Right … more so unexpected. So unexpected. I think that’s what made me want to write the book. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: And really share that because there’s a lot of stories, there’s a lot of people that have come through worse betrayal or deception, I th- than I have.

But at the same time, I wanted to write this book because there’s… I felt like I could help someone. And I really wrote it with the intention of being able to help people, one, that they’re not alone, to understand they’re not crazy, that this is can be some common patterns. But then also you really can come through so much.

It is absolutely possible. And trusting those intuition and those little gut, those little threads, a little they’re there and your body knows, and this is an illustration. I feel like you experience the book a bit. I [00:04:00] tried to write it in that way so that you were there with me and you can see yourself in, obviously not in my situation, but there’s probably some people that have been in similar ones.

But everyone can relate to an aspect of quieting that, that inner voice or ignoring it. So that’s the goal of the book is just understanding how easily we get pulled into things and explain them away. 

Kate Anthony: And the, in your case, the spider on your neck is that intuition. It’s that knocking.

It’s that thing that you’re always like, oh, s- no. And you repeat that theme throughout the book of, I felt it, but I ignored it because that’s what women are trained to do, and that’s what we’re gaslit in, in our relationships to do. I don’t know a- I really don’t know many women who, when all has said and, been said and done, have said You know what?

My intuitions were totally wrong. [00:05:00] Like my, my gut was totally wrong on that, right? Like- 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: we’re usually pretty spot on. 

Chel Cartmill: It was there. It was always there. That’s why I always say, when, what was the very first sign? Even on the first date, ’cause people tend to overlook. I’m like, there’s something there, and I’m not saying we’re meant to look for bad, but just eyes open.

Eyes really open and body in line with what… Because it’s speaking. It has its own language, and it’s those sensations. Me, it was the spider. Sometimes it’s a chest. Sometimes it’s, the gut. Sometimes it’s different things for different people in different situations. But you’re right, yeah.

No one says, “Gee, no clue.” 

Kate Anthony: Oh, I guess my gut was wrong, right? Yeah. We’ll say that throughout, but on the other side, that’s never really the story. I wanted to ask you to read a little section from your book, if you would. I, starting on page 42 [00:06:00] at the bottom of the page. I already told Shel what I wanted her to read, so I’m not gonna pretend I didn’t.

Chel Cartmill: Okay. I was like, are we pretend oh this- We’re 

Kate Anthony: gonna pretend.

Chel Cartmill: No. 

Kate Anthony: Go ahead. 

Chel Cartmill: All right. I love it. I love it. Okay. “I watched the stars and wondered what I was missing. But here’s what I know now, decades later: I wasn’t missing anything. The game was rigged. You can’t win a contest when the rules change every time you get close to the finish line.

I just didn’t know that yet, so I kept playing, kept trying, kept believing that if I could just figure out the right combination of behaviors, the right words, the right version of myself, I could unlock the husband I’d married. I would spend the next 10 years searching for that key. It didn’t exist. I couldn’t name it then, but there was an ache beneath every rejection, a question I was afraid to ask: Did he choose me, or did he just end up with me?[00:07:00] 

I wanted to believe he saw me, my heart, my mind, the things that made me. But the longer we were married, the more I wondered if what he valued wasn’t me at all. It was what I provided, the house maintenance, the managed schedule, the way I made his life easier and his ego fuller. I wasn’t his partner. I was his convenience, and I was so desperate to be chosen that I called it love.”

Kate Anthony: I, I, when I read that passage, I w- my… I just thought, “This is the story of every single one of my clients,” every, everyone that I’ve ever worked with or heard from or spoken with, which at this point in my career is, thousands upon thousands of women. That’s it, right? That’s the- Yeah … that’s it.

I just “Do you see me? I just want you to see me.” 

And if I just had the right key, right? It’s [00:08:00] like- … I remember talking to a client once and saying, “It’s like the, there’s a, the wall is covered in light switches, and you’re just flipping every switch on the wall trying to find the one that-” Yeah

“will turn the lights on.” But what you don’t know is that there’s actually n- there’s no electricity running to any of those fucking switches. There’s nothing. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. They’re 

Kate Anthony: all dead. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

On the other side, that person has to want it, has to have the combination, to where you can, and they don’t want that.

Kate Anthony: They don’t want that. 

Chel Cartmill: They don’t. They’re not looking for the same thing.

Kate Anthony: They’re not looking for the same thing, and that’s what’s so hard for so many women to wrap their brains around, which your story is, yes, you have the husband who’s unfaithful and then makes all the promises and makes all the changes, right?

Which so many of us, we buy, we believe because we want to. 

Also because we see the world [00:09:00] in a certain way, where, like, when we make mistakes, when we… mistakes, but when we do something wrong, the guilt and the shame will lead us to do s- do better, and w- and so we believe that’s how our spouses operate.

But in your case, you also had, as you said, this friend, in big air quotes. Can you tell the audience a little bit about that whole situation so they have a sense of what happened to you? 

Chel Cartmill: Yes. So I had taken him back. We were in counseling from the first affair that was revealed, really pretty guarded.

Kept to myself and was really going through, the wreckage of trying to hold the marriage together, keeping to myself. And a new neighbor had moved in, i- throughout this time, and I, keeping away from everyone in the neighborhood that was normally very connected and at the school and, PTA, I’m super involved in the community, and on the board of the homeowner’s association, [00:10:00] all those different things.

But this particular person moved in, and there was some conflict in the neighborhood at the time. Anyway, all of a sudden she’s calling, she’s messaging, she’s leaving notes. She’s doing all these things to try to become my- To you … yes, me. To you. Yes. To 

Kate Anthony: you. 

Chel Cartmill: To become my friend, maybe it’s chocolates when I get home, one day.

Maybe it’s cards. Maybe it’s an invitation to go to something, and basically she wore me down, and I was… my instinct was I just don’t have the capacity for that right now, and I just don’t know why you’re wanting me right now. I am not putting out kind of the energy of, hey, I, I’m a happy person to be friends with right now.

Like- Yeah … I’m just keeping to myself. And and I can see her talking to the neighbors in the stairs as I drive by and I’m like, “Why are you doing this? It’s so odd.” Now, at the same time I’m isolated, I’m vulnerable, and she just weaves her way in, basically, and begins to really, the bottom line, is pursue me, getting to know me.

The bottom line is [00:11:00] she’s getting to know me so that she can understand what my husband may like about me. Because from the surface, we looked like a great couple. We’re … He’s getting off work early. We’re going out on the boat. We have the kids. We’re doing bike rides. We’re a very close family that’s spending a lot of time together.

And she basically said, “Hey, that looks like something…” I don’t know what the thought was, but my guess is something like, “Oh, I don’t want somebody else to have that,” or, “That looks like competition.” I can’t even fathom. Looks like something I 

Kate Anthony: want to destroy. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Yeah, I don’t- Right

yeah, who knows? 

Chel Cartmill: I can’t speak for her, only my experience with it, but basically, yeah, she got to know me and tried to figure out what he likes about me, and then she started mimicking those things. It was- Not she did. Okay. She, she did, yes.

Kate Anthony: It was 

Chel Cartmill: the- Yeah, she did

Kate Anthony: full-blown Single White Female situation if you remember that movie. Yeah. Where, she she- Broke into… She w- accessed your house when she was taking care of your dog. She put Post-it Notes all over commenting on everything in [00:12:00] your home. Creeper. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Creeper. Yeah.

But of course- Yeah … this was all to access your husband, right?

Chel Cartmill: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: And he was a very willing target for this- Yeah … right? 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. And I think, I… Don’t you think that it’s also an easy target, and this is where I’m… I never want anyone to assume that their person… i’m like, just leave that 2% chance that anything can happen at any time.

Now, that’s not to be in a paranoid state, because I think you can build trust. I have, remarried. I have complete trust and faith there. But I think it’s a conscious decision to choose love, and to choose partnership, and to choose connection on a regular basis so that we can make sure we are the person that we’re celebrating life with, and that we’re going through the ups and downs and having that level of intimacy.

Because in that case, again, the switches weren’t connected on the other side, so I didn’t stand a shot no matter what I [00:13:00] did. Totally. I am convinced of that. Exactly, 

Kate Anthony: 100%. 

Chel Cartmill: And at the same time, there’s women that if I just pay some attention, if I stroke their ego, if I make them, feel special in these ways that, you know, their spouse at home doesn’t, or really can’t at that level because of the daily day-to-day life together.

So yeah, especially if you have the inside track. ‘Cause as it, it talks about in the book, I wasn’t the first victim of her. Of her. It w- they were- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, she’s- Yeah, 

Chel Cartmill: they were … 

Kate Anthony: clearly a bonkers psychopath. She’s… I don’t… Do you know what happened to her?

Chel Cartmill: I know she got divorced. I know that she-

Kate Anthony: I suppose so, that poor guy. Jesus. I know, and he was such a good guy. He really was nice. He was so sweet. He was sweet. Respectable. And he was also an easy target for her to- 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: destroy. Yeah. One of the things that I think is i’ve alluded to this, and I wanna talk more about this, is that your husband was very overt in certain [00:14:00] ways, and yet you still didn’t recognize it, right? Because w- And I’m not faulting you for that. What I’m saying is even when… Now, you did when he finally… I’m, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna…

I do kind of wanna talk about the story. Okay. I was like, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna ruin the story, but it’s, the, the book starts off with you in jail. Yeah. And it’s actually hilarious. The first few pages of the book are like- Thank you 

Chel Cartmill: for appreciating 

Kate Anthony: my dark 

Chel Cartmill: humor … 

Kate Anthony: awful and hilarious as you are describing what it’s like, you know- Yeah

to be this full-blown soccer mom in a holding cell you know- Yeah … Florida jail. Horrible. Yeah. But also absolutely hilarious. 

Chel Cartmill: Hilarious how I wrote it, not hilarious situation at all, right? 

Kate Anthony: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, not- Yeah … 

Chel Cartmill: yeah. Yeah, 

Kate Anthony: exactly. Yes. 

Chel Cartmill: It was…

Yeah. Yes. 

Kate Anthony: It was- That, that 

Chel Cartmill: took some serious therapy and hypnosis- look … to get over. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. 

Chel Cartmill: And I think we do have to laugh about it, it is- You have to … ’cause it’s a really heavy scene, [00:15:00] so I did try to- It’s a 

Kate Anthony: very heavy- … lighten up … heavy scene. And like- Yeah … what leads to your arrest is this complete manipulation and intentional manipula- the intentionality with which your husband operated to get you there With the help of this, quote, friend to feed him information.

But more than anything, he gets you in this situation where, we… It ha- it is termed out there in the world they call it, quote, reactive abuse. But it wasn’t even, it wasn’t even abuse. It was like he literally made you do the thing that would get you arrested, right? A- and I don’t, you 

Chel Cartmill: know- He wasn’t gonna s- he wasn’t gonna stop until, I’m trying to walk away, I’m trying to get away and…

Yeah, and I don’t think it would’ve ha- I don’t know that it would’ve happened without her input and her- … talking to him. ‘Cause sh- i- she couldn’t have just been manipulating me. She was working with him as well, right? Oh, 100%. ‘Cause I think ultimately I was [00:16:00] the target to take down. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she get the, you get him as a prize, whatever. But it was that female competitive- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Chel Cartmill: nature I think was at the heart of it. It wasn’t just- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah … oh, can I break up that happy family over here that appears happy, but can I take her down? 

Kate Anthony: Destroy her. Can I destroy her?

Yeah. Destroy. And so he does this thing, and he gets you, and he… And the thing… And then he s- whispers in your ear, “Gotcha.” 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Which is horrifying. And so revealing, right? But the thing that I, that it made me think about is that sometimes it’s so hard to recognize kind of the monster.

I have clients, I talk about it like it’s because we don’t think this way. 

We do not operate this way. And I was talking to a client recently about this and I was like, he’s an alien from another planet. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Operates in a way that you will never understand. He doesn’t need food [00:17:00] and water.

It’s- No … just a whole… it is an alien… It is so alien to us, it’s anathema to us- Yeah … that somebody would think this way, that we literally can’t see it. 

Chel Cartmill: No way to see it. I had my mom, my sister, my stepdad, we’re all sitting there trying to be, trying to figure it out, and we cannot do it.

And I finally, realized, oh, who am I gonna become trying to figure that out? That’s not my- … that’s not my plane. You’re not going to be able to know the alien language, right? Li- That’s right … using your example. And- … and it’s under- the exhaustion, and I understand, I’ve been there, of needing to know and figure it out and think something’s going to be different is the freedom that I gained when I realized that’s not my job.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Chel Cartmill: My- that’s not my job. It’s nothing I need to spend time and energy on, because that is not me living. That is me staying in the survival mode, and I just spent all those years doing that. I’m not doing it anymore. That’s right. All I need to know is [00:18:00] who am I, what is my truth, where am I headed- Yeah

and how do I get to show up to not be responsive to it? But yeah, it did take me, being set up and but set up and in jail, and then having my kids taken away was a completely separate step. That’s the one that 

Kate Anthony: is- That’s the one that, that’s oh, that, that’s when everything changes, right?

It’s yeah. I… the thing that I… it is… you eventually got to… I can’t… It isn’t, it’s not my job to try and figure this man out and what makes him tick. Which of his childhood wounds made him this way, and if I just love him more. This is w- what I asked you to read, right?

If I just love him more, if I just, flick this switch or flick that switch or dress sexier or, make the house more perfect or le- in your case, less perfect- … ’cause he was weirded out by the, by it being nice. Whatever. You keep trying. You ke- as you said, believe that if I could just figure out the right combination of behaviors, the right words, the right version of [00:19:00] myself, I could unlock the husband that I’d married.

And There are s- The 

Chel Cartmill: idea of the husband that I married, 

Kate Anthony: right? Exactly. Exactly. That’s- Because he wasn’t- Yeah … actually… the man that you married is all of these things, right? Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I always talk about, you talk about the abuse wheel and how- … when that was finally handed to you by your son’s therapist, that, you see it and you’re like, “Oh.”

And what I have to remind my clients who are struggling with this, all the time is that we think that the, the reconciliation part is the relationship, right? That’s… we just keep trying to get back to here, back to the reconciliation, back to the happy time, back to the connection, because that’s the real relationship.

But what we’re, what we don’t understand is that the whole cycle is the relationship. 

Chel Cartmill: Yes. Yes. [00:20:00] Yes. Oh, that’s so good. Yeah. And- Yes, the whole thing. It’s the pattern, it’s the expected, it’s the… Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: How you- It’s the abuse, it’s the tens- the tension building, right? All of that is the relationship. And they were on their best behavior for the first, six months of the relationship or whatever, but after 20 years that’s not the relationship.

The thing you keep trying to get back to was never the relationship. 

Chel Cartmill: And it’s also recognizing there are really good things. That person- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Chel Cartmill: amazing. Yep. H- his I- yeah, his affection for the kids- Yeah … the time that he would give them- Yeah … partly to avoid the intimacy with me.

Sure. And, but it was also, there were great qualities. Some of the very thoughtful things that he would go and do and spend time for me doing, it was nice during that, during, that recovery from the affair and 

Kate Anthony: everything. The reconciliation phase. Yeah,

Chel Cartmill: yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s the… and that, that is the other thing, is that it’s [00:21:00] rarely black or black and white. Because if it was so black and white, while it could be overt- 

… 

Kate Anthony: It’s not black and white. Because when, if it were bl- if it were black and white- 

… 

Kate Anthony: Then we probably wouldn’t stay.

We would never have gotten in the trap to begin with. 

Chel Cartmill: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Because- 

Chel Cartmill: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: we have to have that the good phase for, in order for us to tolerate the bad, to try to… Something to get back to, right? Yeah. And so they are often wonderful in certain ways. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely.

Exactly. My ex-husband is, to this day, he is problematic and difficult and all of the things, and also he is generous, he’s hilarious, he’s- Yeah … smart. Having conversation, w- intellectual conversation with him is stimulating and exciting and fun. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And those are the things that get you intoxicated and get back [00:22:00] into, that’s the trap.

Chel Cartmill: Absolutely. And- And I think people forget that. They’re like, “Oh, no, they were just horrible.” I’m like that’s not true. You wouldn’t have stayed if- That’s right … if it was all horrible.” That just isn’t… Even, when you’re going through everything, and even in my story, it felt like everything was gone and d- and it’s all destroyed, and it’s there’s one thing always working.

Always. In, in your recovery, during the relationship there’s a reason, and I think that’s important to note. And it is really powerful to recognize, what is it that they had? Like- 

… 

Chel Cartmill: You need to know- Yeah … because it’s going to attract you. Again, the sense of humor.

One of the number one things that women want is a partner that can make them laugh. So the ability to be able to bring- … that lightness to life or see you or, joke with you with your humor in a non-condescending way. And it’s interesting because I really felt like he was extremely covert aggressive rather than overt.

Now, I make this- That’s funny … very overt in the book. But it was very covert, because he wasn’t the [00:23:00] name-calling, screaming, “Don’t do this. Don’t do that,” restrictive. It was very covert in the sense of the passive aggressive kind of comments and, “Oh, I made plans,” but then all of a sudden now he has to work even though it was fine a few days ago.

So it was things like that, so it wasn’t like he was saying absolutely no or he was overtly physically abusive and things like that you would see- … on the surface. So- 

Kate Anthony: Oh, yeah … 

Chel Cartmill: that’s part of the crazy-making too, is ’cause nobody else sees it because it’s- Yeah … behind the closed doors, and you can’t say he called me a name,” or, “He made this impossible.

He had to work.” There was always something that justified it, especially if you’re that conscientious person who’s, like you said, we’re looking for ways to hold it together and to be better and take our own responsibility. Oh, if I just did this and I did that. So it’s- 

… 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

And it- 

Chel Cartmill: It’s all of it. 

Kate Anthony: It’s all of it. It’s all the crazy-making. And that’s, that was one of the things that kept me in my relationship for so long was that I was like, this feels like emotional abuse. Now, [00:24:00] this was, I’ve, you said this a million times on the podcast, but this was like 2007.

No, I didn’t have- 

Chel Cartmill: We didn’t, at the same time. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah, exactly. 

Kate Anthony: We didn’t have podcasts. We didn’t have Instagram. Nobody was talking about this. We didn’t understand this. Dr. Ramani wasn’t, breaking all this down for us. So it was just us and then Google, what is emotional abuse, because it’s like- I had a, the spider on my neck being like, I feel like there’s something wrong here. But when you Google what is emotional abuse, certainly at that time, and still actually on some of the more major sites, the, the domestic violence awareness sites it’ll be very overt examples. Like he tells you’re not good enough.

He tells you- … you’ll be nothing without him. My husband would never say those things. Of course- … he wouldn’t say those things. 

Chel Cartmill: Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: Like that is- 

Chel Cartmill: Same with me … 

Kate Anthony: he’s not stupid. He’s a really smart man, right? It was m- it was this, yeah, it’s this subtle control. 

I just wish you would [00:25:00] be more like this or so then I would be more like this.

It w- it’s that moving target- 

… 

Kate Anthony: That you also talk about in the book, right? There’s just like you’re chasing something that just doesn’t exist. Perfection and we think it’s the thing that’s gonna heal him. 

Chel Cartmill: Yes. Yes. I, if I understand him more, and that’s an important thing to note too, and I have so many scenes and so many different things that are in this book that at this point I’m like, did I put that in there?

Did I take that out? I can’t remember. 

Yeah. And it’s, it was the part about the, the therapist that I took my kids to afterwards and- I tried to understand why he was like that and explain to my kids, maybe they didn’t have as much of a loving, mom and dad and supportive as you have had.

And I don’t even remember the exact words, but I remember that therapist about came out of her chair at me, and she said, “Don’t you dare say that, because this is everything he is doing wrong, to them, for them, with them right now, and do not in [00:26:00] any way make excuses or make it like it is acceptable.

That is not what they need to hear at all. They need to hear what he’s doing is wrong, and it’s okay to be upset and be hurt by that.” Now, fine line- Yeah … because he’s over here threatening, “You say anything about me, and I’m gonna have your kids taken away again- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Chel Cartmill: because your alienation of affection,” right?

Ugh. 

So very fine line of being able to say something and hold that line. It’s a… 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. It is a very… So there is a very fine line. I I talk about this as being, like, the the balance between validating your children’s feelings and experiences and not- … throwing the other parent under the bus.

Because of course, there’s legally,

I also what I tend to see with women, and tell me if you see this as well, but what I tend to see is that women are more concerned with, “I don’t wanna say anything negative about their [00:27:00] dad,” right? Than actually validating their children’s experiences.

Or they’re so scared about, “But if I say that, then it’s alienation.” And it’s like, no. No. You are validating their truth. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And you’re expl- you are- explaining to them what has been happening to them. 

Chel Cartmill: Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, it’s- And i- and it’s really, we are so much more terrified.

Women are so much more terrified about how the court system is gonna perceive us, for very valid reasons, than we… and so it makes us almost unable to, or un- you know, terrified of validating our children’s experiences. And I love that therapist said that to you. Oh, me too. And it is not in the book.

I’m so- You did not put 

Chel Cartmill: that in the book. I’m so thankful. Yeah. And that is the truth. It is about understanding. That, it wasn’t really a lot of somatics and the body work that I work, with the emotional regulation, the different things we have now. Yeah. But really, like you just said, they still need…

even [00:28:00] you or me, you know how many people are like I shouldn’t feel this way,” or, “People have had it worse, so let me just move on, from this.” Yeah. Or, that ambiguous loss of de- divorce is a death, and people minimize it because it happens so often that people are like, “Just get over it.

Just move on. Just date. Get the next person.” I’m like, oh my gosh, please don’t do that until you’ve done your work. Please don’t. You’re just gonna attract the same thing, right? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Like I did. And it, and again, reason for writing the book is to let people know this is how easily… It can look at, it can look different, but it really is the same thing again.

Kate Anthony: It, 

Chel Cartmill: yes. And so being able to help them regulate these feelings and know and recognize all these things are valid. You’re going through the divorce or your kids are going through the divorce, it is disrupting everything, and your feelings are valid. What you do with them, what you say, or how you treat people, that’s different.

But they are absolutely valid, all of it. 

Kate Anthony: Yep. 

Chel Cartmill: All of it. 

Kate Anthony: Yep, absolutely. And one of the things that we teach our children in this process is [00:29:00] you can love your dad. It’s okay to love your dad. I love your dad too, in many ways, right? It’s okay to love your dad and his choices and his behaviors are not okay.

Giving our kids words to understand that- 

… 

Kate Anthony: The complexities of that, because I think as children, they, they may not, right? And also nobody gave us those words. No, I was gonna say- That’s how we ended up here. 

Chel Cartmill: Even my clients need help understanding that. That’s not, usually that’s just not something that we’ve been taught or- Oh

as a society and culture has let us know that you can do that. So we’re learning. We’re getting there. It’s, we really are evolving. There’s a lot more access and resources- Oh, yeah … for it now. But, like I said- I 

Kate Anthony: think our kids are so much more emotionally intelligent than we were at their age because they have access to this information and because we have been able to foster it in them.

Chel Cartmill: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: I watch my s- I don’t know about you, but I watch my son in relationships and dating [00:30:00] or not, and and his breakups and I’m like- … how did you get out of this with no, not a, a bone of codependency in your body, right? And I know how he did, ’cause we had these conversations, right? Like- Right

and, he was raised going to little progressive schools where they had mindfulness training and conversations- Yeah … about feelings and empathy and everything from four years old. 

Chel Cartmill: So- Oh that’s gonna make a huge difference. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Did we have that? 

Chel Cartmill: No. No. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Oh, 

Kate Anthony: yeah. Do you see it in your boys now?

I th- 

Chel Cartmill: They’re older than yours. So they’re, like, 30 now, so it’s- Oh … it, they didn’t have that in the schools. It was me trying to navigate and figure it out. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: And I wish, that’s the thing is oh, I wish I’d known it. And, I studied child development, I studied all these things.

I studied the parenting, and again- Oh, sure … just trying to get it right. And I was … And I also got into the trap, and I don’t know if you experienced this or y- your clients, but I got in [00:31:00] the trap of thinking I need to be 200% parent. 

So I felt like I needed to- Oh, you 

Kate Anthony: d- you did. You were o- you were supermom

Chel Cartmill: Oh my goodness. Oh. To the point where I didn’t enjoy them, I didn’t, it was just so much pressure and responsibility, and I was in such survival. ‘Cause back then, again, I didn’t know it was trauma, I didn’t know it was trauma. I didn’t know what it was doing. I didn’t know that was emotional regulation.

I didn’t know what that was. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: I just know my kids were like, “You’re acting crazy.” ‘Cause I’m like, “I’m trying to breathe and survive. You don’t know what he just did, and I’m trying to hold it together.” Yeah. But, it’s being in that place of giving yourself that grace did the best you could at the time with what you knew.

And it is- That’s right … a blessing that we do have more. And, I do see my kids having a perspective and having a perspective about him and the whole situation. And they haven’t read the book. They will never read the book. They do not know everything- Yeah … in this book. And I worked hard to try to protect them the best I could- Yeah

Knowing that I was writing the book. And they support it ’cause they knew that I felt really called to write [00:32:00] it and to help people with it. And so- yeah … yeah, it’s… and I hope it does. I do hope it does help people to recognize. I feel like- I, yeah … everybody in their 20s should read this because- it’s here. R- it’s here. Here’s a 

Kate Anthony: roadmap for- It’s here. Yeah … what ha- what, what can happen in relationships. Like 100%. Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. Yeah. And even learning to trust your own tuition, intuition, no matter what age you are. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right.

That’s right. That’s really the, I think that’s really the, obviously the message and the theme and the title of the book is that really just Not passing those, not letting those intuitive hits- Yeah

pass you by. Yeah. They’re really important and necessary. 

And now you do this work. Now you, you did. You talk about how you really just wanted to help people get through this, and now you do. So- ‘

Chel Cartmill: Cause the signs were there. The signs were there. That was the whole thing was like, “Oh my goodness, it was there the whole time.”

Kate Anthony: And that doesn’t make you stupid. That doesn’t make you stupid. It doesn’t at all.

Chel Cartmill: Not at all. 

Kate Anthony: How do you [00:33:00] balance that? With your clients and stuff, right? ‘Cause we do. We go, “Oh my God, I’m such an idiot.” 

Chel Cartmill: Definitely not through judgment. You will not get through judgment, but compassion, curiosity.

My big thing is what did you tell yourself at the time that made it okay? 

That’s the biggest thing. What’s the story that you made about that at the time? Yeah. So it’s you recognizing what is that? How are you dismissing? Are you distorting? Are you dismissing? Are you ignoring? What is…

How did you cope with that? Because that pattern is what you need to learn and recognize and work with. But so it’s… and I knew as I was coming out of it, I was like, “Wow, I really wanna help people,” ’cause those signs were there, but I didn’t believe them because, and I think this is where, and I see it all the time as well.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Because there wasn’t enough evidence on, oh, but they… Not evidence, tangible- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Chel Cartmill: that you could write on paper or that somebody else could see to help justify it. Yeah. And so the work that I do is you do not need to know all of those [00:34:00] things. You don’t need to say, “Oh, but they said this, but they probably could’ve been at work, ’cause sometimes they work late.”

And it’s like you do the regulation to where you are regulated, because a lot of times people just stay in that heightened state, so they’re like that all the time. But once you’ve done the work and you’ve learned to regulate and you’ve really tuned in with your body and with those signals and with that intuition, and when you know that you know when something’s off.

That’s right. And you can either, then you have the confidence to speak to it, to respond to it. So you notice it, but it’s the acting. ‘Cause I think that’s the key. Yeah. Is taking the action for ourselves to be able to say, “Something didn’t feel right.” And I, I drive my husband crazy now.

I’m like, “Okay, so I just had this thing come up, and I’m checking if it was at me, was it that?” I say, “I really just need the honest truth.” I don’t care. I just, for me, it’s an intuition check. 

Am I still, do I still have it? Because I don’t ever wanna tune it out. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chel Cartmill: And [00:35:00] did you think this in that answer? And it’s not that he’s done anything wrong and, or it- it’s just one of, like my gut check. Yeah. Am I still in tune? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: And I just need to know, did you think this at all? And I’m not mad, I’m not upset. It’s just my own tuning. And, and he’ll go I guess if I really think about it,” ’cause people don’t know, right?

It’s in their subconscious too- Yeah … of some of the ways they’re responding. So it’s a fun little check that I just kinda dial in and tune every now and then. Okay, I kinda got this strange sensation. Was that something from you? Was that my past coming in? So that I can always stay in tune. And I think it’s- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Chel Cartmill: having the confidence to be able, and I’m sure with the clients you work with, it’s having the confidence to notice it, but then respond to it. 

Kate Anthony: That’s 

Chel Cartmill: right. It doesn’t mean you have to run, doesn’t mean you have to cause a fight. It’s just, “Hey, what was that?” Yeah. Do your own work. What was that with me?

What came up? And then have the confidence to articulate and say, “I kinda got some, some weird [00:36:00] vibe there.” Yeah. What was that? 

Kate Anthony: And also, and I love the way you frame it too. It’s was that me? Is that my past? Is that my trauma? Or is that… and if it is your trauma, that also doesn’t mean that- It excludes the relationship because- 

Chel Cartmill: Exactly

Kate Anthony: you bring your trauma to the relationship, and if the relationship wants to be a healing place for you and- … and the individuals in it, then that actually matters to the relationship. 

Chel Cartmill: Exactly. Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: And it means that we don’t ha- we’re not there’s no blame, right? Yeah. There’s curiosity. 

Chel Cartmill: It’s just curiosity. It’s absolutely, it’s not the judgment. It’s just, okay we’re both striving to be the best we can be. If I’m working with a couple that’s wanting to save their marriage and we’re working together, I’m like I won’t work with them if they’re not doing the individual work.” But if we’re in a m- in a session and something comes up, I’m like that’s your past stuff.

That- … that’s yours. You work on that on your own.” 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: Nobody knows what that is. That’s not a clear, “Oh, this is my past [00:37:00] stuff coming up.” And even if it is, yeah, you can still be in relationship. It’s just, how can we work through this together? And how can I be the best version of myself while healing?

Because we can do a lot of work and get in a new relationship. I think a lot of people think, “Oh, I have to do all this work so that I’m perfect and healed to get into…” I’m like, “Oh, there’ll be another level, I promise you.” 

Kate Anthony: Oh no. 

Chel Cartmill: There’s always another level, right? 

Kate Anthony: Listen, you are- Yeah … everyone’s great at relationships when they’re single.

Yeah. We can all do all the work in the world, but like once- Yeah … you get into it, then it’s like, oh, fuck, there’s like, all the confronting stuff just coming up in the relationship, of course. And 

Chel Cartmill: as it’s meant to. As it’s meant to. 

Kate Anthony: That’s the point. 

Chel Cartmill: It’s fine-tuning you. Yes, it’s the point. 

Kate Anthony: 100%. 100%, yeah.

Chel Cartmill: Helping you be the best version of yourself, and we do attract those people. I feel very blessed for those experiences now because I can spot them. I can spot them, which is painful when it’s people that you love doing the same repeated pattern. You’re like, “Oh.” Yeah. But it is that opportunity to spot it, to [00:38:00] know, to grow, and continue to evolve and support each other, as friends and family and being in community together to just fine-tune each of us so that we can have what I say is that- White hot pure love where it’s just- 

Kate Anthony: Yes

Chel Cartmill: so good. It- So good … 

Kate Anthony: so good. 

Chel Cartmill: It’s possible. 

Kate Anthony: It’s, and like what is white hot pure love, right? I, I think that differs. It’s not the 

Chel Cartmill: butterflies 

Kate Anthony: and the fairy tale. It’s not the butterflies. It’s the fact that, I can say to my husband, “When you XYZ it, it triggers me. It’s my trauma. But I feel triggered, and I’m reminded of my childhood and this thing that happened, and it was really scary.

And so I feel scared when you XYZ because it’s triggering that.” And for my husband to be like, “I’m… Okay. Then I don’t, then I’m gonna work on not doing that because I don’t wanna trigger you,” right? I am clear that it’s my trigger, and that maybe whatever he’s doing is in an- in with anyone else would be fine.

But he loves me enough to be like, “Whoa. [00:39:00] I’m, I don’t, then I don’t wanna do that.” To me, that’s the white hot love, right? Yeah. That’s the sexiest- Yeah … thing in the world. 

Chel Cartmill: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Chel Cartmill: And seeing you all of that. Yes. That’s right. And not making that wrong or needing to hide anything.

It’s just “This is me. This is my weird, wacky, annoying self,” that’s one of my favorite lines in the book is- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Chel Cartmill: with my husband now. Yeah. We call that where- 

Kate Anthony: I do. 

Chel Cartmill: I 

Kate Anthony: do … 

Chel Cartmill: it’s… And so it’s like, am I too much? And he’s like sometimes.” I’m like, “Awesome! Great.”

Totally. And I’m like, “And I’m not gonna back down.” That’s that white hot- That’s sweet … pure love of I see you, I see all of you, and- I’m gonna still be in a relationship and work and grow with you. And that starts with us, with ourselves, and accepting all of those parts of ourselves, all of those pasts and those- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Chel Cartmill: yeah, the forgiveness- That’s right … of self and all those components of everything that led you to where you are now so that you can enjoy every bit of it, every bit of it. That’s right. Not easy. That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Takes- Not [00:40:00] easy, and takes a lot of work to get there, but it is- And the- … so worth it. 

Chel Cartmill: It is.

And you get the credit. You, you get the reward of it, right? Because you know you did the hard thing. People that train for a triathlon or whatever it might be, it’s in that journey that you, oh, you learn so much about yourself. And you’re so proud of it. If you could just go out and do a triathlon tomorrow, doesn’t have the same reward as if you had- That’s right

Trained and trained. So that’s what this is. It’s all the, the life training, right? 

Kate Anthony: That’s 

Chel Cartmill: right. 

Yeah. That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. Yeah. So good. Shell, thank you so much for this conversation, for your book, and for the work that you do. Can you tell everyone where they can find you? 

Chel Cartmill: Oh, thanks, Kate. Yes, it’s been a pleasure being here, and you can get the book, anywhere Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and wherever they’re selling at retail stores.

It’s Spider On My Neck, and you can find me at shellcartmill.com. That’s… I’m there. I’m happy to talk with anybody [00:41:00] through what that is and- Yeah … love any feedback on the book or questions, can support people. There’s some resources at the back that do help people to continue to identify and notice and respond to their own intuition and their own knowings.

Kate Anthony: Yes. Wonderful. Shell, thank you so much for being here. It’s been such a good conversation. I really appreciate it. 

Chel Cartmill: Thank you so much, Kate. It’s been such a pleasure.