Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I am here with a return guest, my friend Laurie James. She is a mother, divorcee, recovering caregiver turned author, certified somatic pra- practitioner and a coach and a podcaster. With over 15 years experience in energy work, somatic healing, parts work and coaching, Lori’s podcast, Confessions of a Free Bird, was inspired by her youngest of four children leaving the nest, and is the sequel to her book Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go.

Lori, it’s so great to have you back. 

Laurie James: Yeah. Thank you. I think this is the third time, and the very first time was when I was promoting my book. 

Kate Anthony: Your book, Sandwiched. Yeah. Exactly. We first talked about Sandwiched, then we’ve talked… We’ve had a lot of conversations about somatic healing both in Phoenix Rising as a guest- Yeah

that you came in, which was amazing, [00:01:00] and on the podcast. Today we’re gonna talk about something completely different, although maybe not so much. We’re gonna talk about miso- the rise of misogyny in midlife. 

Laurie James: Yes. That, that’s just a light topic. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, just totally no big deal, not triggering at all.

Tell me why you wanted to have this conversat- ’cause you pitched this to me, and I w- I did … you know me, I’m like, “Yep, let’s go.” Yeah. Which, because… I pitched it to you because of everything that I’m seeing that’s happening, not only just in the US, but really worldwide. And the rhetoric that is out there, and the rise that I’m seeing is not a conversation, although I know that you are willing to touch it, I don’t believe it’s a conversation that a lot of people are willing to have.

Oh, yeah. It’s like the third rail. I’ve been talking about this shit, screaming about it from the rooftops to anyone who will [00:02:00] listen since before 2016. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: I did a podcast episode in 2016 called Toxic Abuser in Chief. And people were like, “Ah, nah nah.” And now I’m like, “Hello.”

Yes, here 

Laurie James: it is. Hello, here 

Kate Anthony: we are. Here we are. 

Laurie James: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: So- 

Laurie James: and you saw- Yes … the train Rec happening 

Kate Anthony: I saw the writing on the wall. I saw the writing on the wall, and I was like, “Hey, guys.” And, I, and I will say I certainly did not see it- 

Laurie James: To this level … 

Kate Anthony: coming to this level. I know it’s pretty intense.

But thank you for knowing where to go with this topic. ‘Cause you know I’m game to talk about the patriarchy and misogyny- Yes … in the US and around the world. Yeah, you’re seeing this, and you don’t feel like people are having this conversation- 

Laurie James: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: enough. And obviously we’re two divorce coaches.

And we see this shit a lot. What are you seeing in your practice? 

Laurie James: What I’m seeing is a lot [00:03:00] of dysregulation. First of all- … divorce is the most, second most dysregulating thing that we can do be- because of the stress that is involved in leaving and all the unknown and all the uncertainty that is wrapped up in divorce.

But then when you then throw somebody who is, gaslighting, manipulative, controlling, which are a lot of the things unfortunately that I experienced in my own marriage and my own divorce as well. And so I just figure if we can continue to have this conversation and maybe touch even if it’s just a couple of listeners, I think it’s an conversation that is, needs to continue to be repeated.

And mostly to hopefully allow your listeners to [00:04:00] not feel like they are alone or that they’re crazy or that it’s their fault for what’s happening, because that’s what we internalize When we are going through something, and I did that to the nth degree. I was my own worst critic. But now, with the knowledge that I have now and that my own personal experiences, it’s also because my nervous system was so dysregulated, and I was in survival mode for so long.

Then my body crashed a year and a half after my divorce, and the amount of freedom that I feel inside and the happiness and joy that I experience now eight years out of when I left my marriage, it’s like night and day. [00:05:00] So it’s giving your listeners some hope, and also along the way, giving listeners tools and community.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. One of the things that’s I think… my listeners, because they’re my listeners, and I’ve been talking about this for as long as possible, but I do think it’s really important for women to understand, for us to name- 

Laurie James: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: the things that are happening to them as they’re happening, right?

That you guys are walking down this path. It’s a path that I’ve walked. It’s a path that Lori has walked. It might look different, right? Different landscape, but very similar paths. And there are things that happen along the way that might look like one thing, but when we name it something specific, it reframes it- in a way that makes it, makes you realize it’s not you. 

Laurie James: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: You’re not crazy. [00:06:00] It has a name. It is an outside force. And not only does that take the onus off of you for how to, how you deal with it, or that if you’ve experienced it in a negative way, in a way that’s, difficult or whatever that you’re normal.

It… you’re supposed to. Yeah. If it’s called this other thing, then how you deal with it is actually, has a completely different set of steps- … and a roadmap. Different roadmap. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Let’s talk let’s define it, right? What is misogyny? What… what… When we talk about, when you and I talk about misogyny, what are we calling it?

What are we saying? 

Laurie James: I think misogyny is several things, right? It is gaslighting. It’s coercive control. I think that, in my opinion- … it’s also a way for a spouse or a partner to make the woman feel less than and have their feelings be [00:07:00] irrational And that their needs are too much.

And what that does is it teaches the individual not to trust themselves. And when you don’t trust yourself, then you are going to trust your partner as they know better than I do, so I’m going to then listen to them, and maybe they are right. Maybe I am the problem.” 

Kate Anthony: And I think that, in terms of defining misogyny, right?

I think exactly what you’re saying. It is all of these things. The definition of misogyny from the dictionary- 

Laurie James: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: is the dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. All of the things that you’ve been describing, right? Misogyny and, gaslighting and coercive control, all of those things, [00:08:00] they exist inside this container of contempt for women.

That’s misogyny. And that if you look at the behavior that this person… And this is why it’s so fucking confusing. Yes. Because this person is supposed to love you. This person took a vow to love, honor, respect, cherish you, and they are treating you with contempt. Yeah. And that’s where the gaslighting starts.

‘Cause you’re like, but they’re like, “But I love you.” If they love you, why do they have contempt for you? If they love you, why are they treating you like they actually dislike you? And by the way, it may not be that they dislike you, they dislike all women. And by the way, that includes your daughters.

Laurie James: Yes. And that’s one of the other reasons why I want to have this conversation is because I have four daughters. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Laurie James: And I feel- … very fortunate that they’re in [00:09:00] healthy relationships with great men, but that was one of my biggest fears of having four daughters was, oh, my goodness, are they going to repeat my pattern?

Because I repeated in a s- in a different way, but I repeated a pattern that was happening in my parents’ marriage as well. So that was my biggest fear. So if, if you- 

Kate Anthony: And same thing for me- Yeah … as the pa- as the mother of a boy- Yeah … was like, oh, my God, is he gonna repeat who his father is?

Laurie James: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And so this was, we are the poster children for get the fuck out before your children become as impacted by the misogyny- Yeah … as, as we were. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And as perhaps you are. 

Laurie James: Yes. Even though I did as much as I could to protect my kids from it, and fortunately, my ex-husband worked a lot and [00:10:00] wasn’t in the house a lot.

But now that they’re adults, they are having to deal with some of that at some level. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, sure. Absolutely. 

Laurie James: Because there’s, the healing isn’t happening on the other side. 

Kate Anthony: No, of course not. Yes, there’s, there are things we can do to mitigate these things inside the relationship, of course.

But ultimately, when we stay in it, we’re saying something to our kids. Yeah. 

Laurie James: Yeah. And here’s another thing that I, before we go on, I just I wanna also put in here, because this is something that happened to me that I talked about a year ago when I was on your podcast. There’s a guy named Gabor Mate.

He is an MD, and he’s in the healing, body-based healing world. I recently went to go see him. He was promoting a new book. But what he talks about the effects that repression has on our [00:11:00] bodies. And this is a loose quote, but he talks about the repression of anger is an automatic and unconscious mechanism, and it disarms our body’s defenses against illness, and that is one of the reasons why women At the strikingly number experience 80% of all autoimmune disease, and that’s a number or that’s a, a figure that the NIH has confirmed, right?

So that’s the other point, because this does have an effect on our bodies because our bodies can only handle so much of this emotional abuse, suppression of our feelings, emotions, choices. That’s right. Exactly. Exactly. And here’s the thing is that [00:12:00] all autoimmune diseases are fueled by increasing levels of cortisol- and stress hormones. Those are the, those are like the, the feeders- … of th- of suppressing the immune system is… And so we carry 80% more of these stress hormones in our relationships in the world- … just by being a woman. Just by being female- … that men don’t experience.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. We are 80% more stressed. 

Laurie James: A- and it ch- it does show up in our bodies. And I don’t want to say that to have the listeners say Oh my God, I’m gonna get an autoimmune issue. But- 

Kate Anthony: Oh no. But if you have one, by the way 

Laurie James: But right, if you have one, and a- and also not to shame anybody, because I also look back and say, “Why did I stay so long?”

Kate Anthony: Sure. Yes. This is not… No. We- and what had you wake the fuck up was ending [00:13:00] up in the hospital 

Laurie James: I ended up in the hospital after- Practically on your deathbed … but, there was definitely an emotional two by four that hit me up the head of y- you know, “Oh, no, I don’t view you as a partner, so I’m gonna make this unilateral decision without you, even though we’ve been together for 20 years,” which sent me into therapy, right?

And couples therapy, and- 

Kate Anthony: It’s not your fault. If you have an autoimmune disease or there’s no shame here. We’re not, we’re definitely not shaming anybody. Well- We’re naming it. 

Laurie James: Yes. And you are ready to leave when you f- have certain things in place- … so you can feel safe enough- 

Kate Anthony: Yes

Laurie James: in your body and in your mind to leave. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. So I wanna talk about that, right? Yeah. Because then there’s this catch-22, which is I am… Whether you [00:14:00] have an autoimmune dis- disorder or, condition or not, right? What we’re saying is that ei- that, 80% of the autoimmune disorders that women- Happen to women

that, that are, that happen in women, and the amount of stress that we experience is partially responsible for that. But if you are stressed beyond belief, you can barely function, even if it hasn’t, tipped over the edge to a full-blown autoimmune issue. But, most of us walk around In a const…

Look, we l- if we’re bringing it back to misogyny- … we wa- we walk around in a constant state. Women are in a constantly heightened state. We walk around with our keys between our knuckles. We are constantly vigilant and looking over our shoulders. We are, scared to open our DMs because there might be some asshole in there, something violent.

Whatever it is, we experience this. We are [00:15:00] stressed, so our nervous systems are constantly- When we’re activated 

Laurie James: Hypervigilant … 

Kate Anthony: and then we’re supposed to get to a place where we feel safe enough in the midst of all this hypervigilance to to use our brains, to have our executive functioning work e- enough to be able to create a safety plan or get our ducks in a row, right?

We always tell everyone “Get your ducks in a row before you, make a plan to leave,” and all that shit, and it’s I don’t have that exec- Yeah … that brain, that part of my brain isn’t working. Yeah, because my 

Laurie James: prefrontal cortex is off because I’m just trying to survive the day.

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. And this is what we’re telling people, right? Yeah. And yet you and I both know that in order to do that, it is a Herculean effort. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And since somatic work is your area of expertise, what advice do you give to women who feel so activated that they literally can’t make a plan? That we’re telling them to make a plan, but they’re like, “I can’t think.”

Laurie James: Yeah. It’s taking [00:16:00] breaks throughout the day to not think about everything, not, and just be with yourself. Learning simple somatic practices that can help regulate you. And also, I also talk about creating a, what I call a regulation toolbox. What are the things during the day that help you feel more p- pleasant and present?

Even if it’s only doing that three times a day for five minutes, going for a walk around the block, petting your animal talking to a friend who is safe, having your appointment with your therapist or a somatic practitioner who knows how to regulate your nervous system, right? Sitting here and feeling, sitting down and [00:17:00] just feeling the chair support you, feeling your feet on the ground, and also noticing and tracking what’s happening in the body if you can connect with it.

Not everybody can, and if they can’t, sit and look at a tree, the wind blow through the trees for three minutes. That is how quickly you can start learning to down-regulate your nervous system because you’re, you’ve lived in a heightened state of survival for so long and here’s what happens. It’s like you dip down a little bit.

The more you do it, then you’re able to dip down even further, and then all of a sudden, wow, I’m actually sleeping for an hours, four hours at a stretch or five hours at a stretch, right? Yeah. And you s- and you can do this, and once you create that felt sense of safety in the body, [00:18:00] you’re not so hypervigilant and you have more energy to say, “Okay, my kids are okay in this moment.

My…” For me, I’ll just use myself as an example, my mother isn’t on and off hospice. She’s healthy right at the moment. My kids are all okay in the moment. This is the time I’m gonna pull the trigger. And it’s waiting, and sometimes it’s that waiting for that kind of ideal situation, and then you pull the trigger, and you go, and you don’t look back.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. ‘Cause I 

Laurie James: did that twice. 

Kate Anthony: Or you make the plan. Or you make the plan, right? I was just thinking about how sometimes when you… People start talking about how as soon as I sit down to meditate or I start to breathe my brain starts racing.” Yeah. I think sometimes that’s ’cause your prefrontal cortex is coming back online, right?

Yeah. And so if the to-do lists start, if you s- if you are, like, feeling flooded and you can’t blah, blah, blah, and then you sit [00:19:00] down and you start to breathe, and then the to-do list starts happening keep a pad of paper next to you- Yeah … and write the shit down because what it signifies, what it signals to me is that yeah, your prefrontal cortex is coming back online.

It has a lot of shit to do, right? You don’t need to come out of the mindfulness or whatever, but just jot it down so that you’re capturing things as they’re happening. 

Laurie James: And then come back. But also, we know that when you have, when you’re flooded with thoughts, you’re in a state of dysregulation, right?

And yes, jot them down. Let them float by like a cloud and say, “Thank you. I’ll come back to it. Let me come back to my body right now.” Again, even just for five minutes. I don’t wanna make this complicated for anybody, and that’s the beauty of somatic experiencing. It’s just about experiencing what’s happening in the body for short, what we call titrated, short periods- of time throughout the day because we want our nervous [00:20:00] system to come up into activation and down into rest and digest. Up and down. That’s what a healthy nervous system looks like. It’s not about being calm all the time ’cause it’s not reality. 

Kate Anthony: And I think, again it’s just really important to just recognize and acknowledge that, like- We as women are experiencing this at rates that are s- exponentially higher than men are because of the systemic conditioning

We know that [00:21:00] this has been going on for, an eternity, right? M- my mother was railing against the patriarchy in the ’70s, and I remember just being like, “Oh- Oh, I love that … Mom, 

Laurie James: shut up about the patriarchy.” 

Kate Anthony: And now, look at me now. 

Laurie James: Look at 

Kate Anthony: you. Oh, geez. Let’s go, Mom. But that says something, that in the ’70s my mom was railing about it, and here we are now.

Hello. You have 

Laurie James: some- Still 

Kate Anthony: dealing with 

Laurie James: it 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, still dealing with it, and louder and worse, right? Yes. Because this is not just a… You have some, some sort of shocking statistics that you would- 

Laurie James: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: like to share, 

Laurie James: yes … 

Kate Anthony: with us. 

Laurie James: So misogyny across the US in 2025 and 2026 there was a measurable difference.

In the 24 hours following the 2024 election, misogynistic phrases on social media spiked

[00:22:00] 4600%. I don’t– it’s hard for me to comprehend that number. 

Kate Anthony: Especially since it felt like people hated women before then. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Like- 

Laurie James: it, yes, and this was mounting, as we know, and you talked about it. I 

Kate Anthony: mean- It was mounting. 

Laurie James: It was mounting. I think things had come down, but it had been mounting for the previous 18 months to two years prior to that.

What’s also happened is since COVID, that the kind of fringe internet forums directly are now directly in the mainstream through the manosphere, wi- and that’s shaping culture policy and the way young men see women. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Laurie James: So that is scary too- It’s terrifying … for the future of our children, grandchildren- 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely.

Laurie James: It is- … navigating all that. 

Kate Anthony: It is horrifying. I haven’t watched it yet, but there is that really g- what I hear is a [00:23:00] really good documentary on, I think it’s on Netflix, about the manosphere. 

Laurie James: I haven’t watched it either, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: It s- sounds really upsetting, and it’s gonna make me angry, but I have to watch it.

I think what, what happened in 2024, just to, put a real fine point on it, is that after the election when we elected- … a sexual abuser, convicted sexual abuser- … or he wasn’t convicted for that. It was a civil case, whatever. But he, he’s a felon. 

Laurie James: He’s a felon 35, four times over.

Kate Anthony: Exactly, a 34 time felon. He may have not- And sex- and known sexual abuser. Known- Yes … sexual abuser and admitted sexual abuser to the White House a second time, everyone just kinda went, “Oh, cool, so we’re doing this now. All right.” We are doing this, and we’re doing it out loud. And the filters, all the filters came off.

Laurie James: Yeah. This has given everybody permission. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, that’s right. Now- It’s [00:24:00] permission … now the fil- ’cause in 2016 it was still like, ooh, are we okay with this? The grab him by… W- when he got elected after the grab him by the pussy, tho- there were those- Ugh … tho- those among us that were like Yeah, so we’re doing this now.

Y’all see that we’re doing this now? And people are like the economy and blah, blah, blah,” whatever it is. 

Laurie James: Yeah. How’s the economy now? 

Kate Anthony: Sorry. How’s the economy now, motherfuckers? I 

Laurie James: just paid $7 a gallon for gas the other day. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, Lori and I are in California- I live in California

which is a whole other… You guys are like, “And oh my God, gas is $4 a gallon.” Yeah. Fuck you. Gas is $7 a gallon for us right now. Oh my God. But anyway, yeah, it’s very serious. People were saying at that point “Oh, he didn’t mean it,” locker room talk. By 2024, we knew he meant it- and they knew he meant it, and the floodgates [00:25:00] were open. Yeah. And now we’re all, okay with this. 

Laurie James: Yeah. But, comments like, “Shut up, piggy.” E- even though that reporter was composed and handled itself, and I know Kaitlin Collins has gotten a lot of blowback. 

Kate Anthony: God bless that woman for showing up- Oh my God

and interviewing him every week. What? Like, how? 

Laurie James: But that does have an effect over time on people. 

Kate Anthony: Of course. Regardless 

Laurie James: how… 

Kate Anthony: yes. It’s, it just- Absolutely … 

Laurie James: does. 

Kate Anthony: It just does. And and and then everyone laughs. “He said shut up, piggy. She is a piggy.” Whatever it is.

Laurie James: “Oh, she doesn’t mean, he doesn’t mean it,” or, “He meant this.” No, he meant it. 

Kate Anthony: Or now they’re like, “Oh, it’s funny.” They’re not even ex- anyway, we could go on and on about him. Yeah. I don’t wanna talk about him. Yeah, okay. But the point being- 

Laurie James: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: point being that massa- now we have things like rape academies.

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: So for those who don’t know what the rape academy situation was- … if you’ve [00:26:00] heard about this where to begin? Gisèle Pelicot, this incredible French woman who discovered that her husband had been drugging her and have, had hundreds of men come over and rape her repeatedly over the course of 20 fucking years.

Laurie James: Years, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: She showed her face, she named her face, and she basically, she said her quote was incredible. She said, “Shame must switch sides,” something like that. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Where and I talk a lot in my work about carried shame, and she just exemplified it perfectly, right? Women are always so ashamed of having been assaulted, of having been raped, of having been mistreated, right?

We’re ashamed of having been abused. That’s not our shame. No, it’s not. We’re carrying the shame of the person who’s not feeling it. Because when the- Or 

Laurie James: the society 

Kate Anthony: Or the culture that… exactly. But it is [00:27:00] the, the society has shifts the shame onto the woman who, onto the victim, and she said, “Absolutely not.

I’m standing tall, I’m standing proud because he is the one who should be ashamed, not me.” Yeah. And it was so powerful. But in the aftermath of that, what was discovered is that there are all these online forums that are teaching men how to do exactly what that man did to his wife, and are showing, they’re shown videos, they’re shown things- Horrifying

horrifying. Photographs of their sleeping wives and is she moving? Was she… she looks like she’s asleep, so you know. Literally an academy, literally online forums teaching men how to rape their sleeping wives. Their wives. Their wives. Yeah. That, yes. The women they purport to love. 

Laurie James: That’s misogyny 

Kate Anthony: In action 

Laurie James: Yes On steroids, yes 

Kate Anthony: because that is not for the love of women, that [00:28:00] is for the absolute hatred of women. Yeah. 

Laurie James: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: This is where we’re at. ‘Cause it really is. This is where we’re at. And- … there were so- how many millions of views did that thing have?

And then everyone was- 

Laurie James: 60 million in a month 

Kate Anthony: 60 million in a month. And here’s the thing. Yes, the- everyone kept coming out and being like that’s not 60 million people. That’s just 60 million v-」 I don’t fucking care. It 

Laurie James: doesn’t… 

Kate Anthony: that’s only one forum, by the way. That’s only one forum.

Okay, sorry, was it only one m- one, 1 million men, 60 to- each one of them coming back 60 times? That’s okay? No. And it was only one. 

Laurie James: And here’s the thing. I didn’t see any p- major public news outlet in the US that was talking about it, and I could be wrong, but- … I saw it- Agreed … on social media.

But- Agreed … CNN broke that report. 

Kate Anthony: CNN- 

Laurie James: But CN- 

Kate Anthony: [00:29:00] Yeah, they did … 

Laurie James: but it was CNN in London. It wasn’t- US … CNN in the US, and I did not s- I sometime, watch clips of CNN. I don’t watch it all the time. But I don’t believe that they reported it- Wow … in the US. 

Kate Anthony: I, it doesn’t surprise me. I don’t watch the news anymore.

I, I- Yeah … can’t. I won’t. Yeah. I get my news through, more contained sources. I didn’t see that. But it does not, it always surprises me, but it does not surprise me. 

Laurie James: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: It enrages me, but it 

Laurie James: doesn’t surprise me. It, yes, it enrages you, and it sickens you. And h- and here’s the other thing, too, that happens to us because, and this is intentional, by the way, too.

They are throwing this at us, and they are, throwing these so that way we become numb to it. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. 

Laurie James: And from a nervous system standpoint we are either Puts us in a fawn response. Yep. We go into a [00:30:00] freeze or collapse response, and sometimes, like right now, you and I, we’re in a little bit of a fight response.

Yeah. Which is good, right? It’s like, okay, come on. Let’s have this conversation. Get ’em. Let’s go. Let’s take ’em down. Yeah. One at a time. Come on, Kate. But… And that is a good thing, but when we are, when we are shut down all the time, when we’re in a fawn response all the time, we don’t have that agency to create the fight, to be able to fight back.

It’s… And it’s not anything that’s wrong with you. It’s how our nervous system is in that moment or that period of time in our life. It’s a survival mechanism. That’s right. It’s how we’re surviving the situation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So again even though we are having this conversation, I don’t want anybody to feel bad that they’re like, “Oh, I’m just waking up to this,” or, “I haven’t been able to do anything about this, but now [00:31:00] I want to.”

Kate Anthony: So yeah, f- so first of all, let me just say, we, I don’t, and I don’t… I’m sure Lori agrees with me. We don’t want anyone to become an activist while you’re in the middle. You cannot fight against a system that you’re still grappling with. Yes. So if… we can’t ch- yes, we need to- 

Laurie James: Very good point

Kate Anthony: we need family court reform. I do not want you becoming an advocate for family court reform while you’re in the family court system. Yeah. Now, once you’ve gone through the family court system and you have a lot of data about how much fucking reform it needs have at it, let’s do this. But if you are in the midst of a misogynistic relationship, let’s wake up to it and- Remove yourself from it- 

Laurie James: Yes

Kate Anthony: before you start fighting it, right? 

Laurie James: And heal from it. Do the work to heal after the divorce is over, because that healing work is so important [00:32:00] to do. And then that’s when then you can create the agency to then go fight the good fight with the rest of us. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. Then by all means, join the fight.

Join the fight. Join the fight. But you have to join the fight when you’re not in this activation. Yeah. We get activated into fight, and then Lori and I have years and years of training and experience with how to when we turn off our computers, we get on with our lives. We’re not- 

Laurie James: Yeah.

We don’t stay in it. 

Kate Anthony: I go walk the dog, and hang out with my husband, and cook dinner, and do, and goofy- Yeah … and whatever. I’m not sitting here railing against the patriarchy all the time. You’d be surprised. You would be surprised. But I don’t. I actually have a full life. Does include watching a lot of Dateline, which basically reinforces all of my feelings about this, because here it is in real time.

But yeah it’s very important to have that [00:33:00] balance, and have you’re not… Now, also, we’re not the ones that necessarily should be fighting this fucking battle. So if you have men- No … in your life that you perceive to be good men, ask them what the fuck they’re doing about it. Because that was the thing about the Rape Academy.

Like, how many men were posting about that? How many men were making videos railing against the Rape Academy? Not that many. 

Laurie James: No. Not… I did see a couple, but the majority of them that I saw on social media were women- That’s right … that were fighting that fight- … and bringing it to people’s attention.

Kate Anthony: Yep. 

Laurie James: For sure. 

Kate Anthony: Yep, yep. So Lori, being on the other side of divorce, you and I, right? And, I just got remarried, but I was single for a very long time. A lot of the women I work with, and I’m sure this is true of you, are terrified to get out there and date given this information. 

Laurie James: Yes. Yes. 

Kate Anthony: What advice do you have for them?[00:34:00] 

Laurie James: Again, we need to do the healing work A- and you don’t need to be fully healed, whatever, whatever your definition of that is. But you need to be able to not be in a place where you have so much anger and resentment towards your ex, right? Because if you have anger and resentment towards your ex still, you are just going to re-channel that anger and resentment, which is a fight response- … it’s a dysregulated nervous system, at whoever and the pe- and the men online. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Laurie James: So I was in a relationship for about three and a half years that ended over a year and a half ago. I’m in a fairly new relationship with a really great guy. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, good. It’s new. It’s still five-ish months into it, but when you do that healing work and you know what [00:35:00] regulation and feels like in your body, and you’re no longer in that survival mode, you have more trust in yourself- Yes

and you are able to tap into your intuition to say, “Ooh, that guy feels a little creepy.” 

Kate Anthony: And to trust it. 

Laurie James: And to trust it and end that conversation then and there- And 

Kate Anthony: act on it … 

Laurie James: verse- … versus going, “Oh, let me just see. Maybe it was just, a one-off.” And this kinda goes back to, I see burned haystack.

Kate Anthony: I was gonna say, right? We go 

Laurie James: back- 

Kate Anthony: Block to burn, baby Block to burn … block 

Laurie James: to burn. And I did that, and, I met somebody fairly quickly which I wasn’t expecting. I was like, “Oh, this is gonna take a while. Let me just put myself back out, out there.” And he was, like, one of the first guys I went on a date with, and he…

It was slow at first, and I was like, “Okay, that’s fine.” We were both dating other people, and… but I think that’s the biggest thing, is get to a place where you can [00:36:00] really start trusting yourself, trusting that intuition. And yes, when you start dating, you’re gonna make a few mistakes, and don’t shame yourself and have some understanding, compassion of this is new, and I’m just learning this, ’cause it’s a whole different world.

But so much is about, how much time and effort do they put into their profile? 

Kate Anthony: Oh, yeah. Exactly, ’cause that’s how much, that’s exactly how much effort they’re gonna put into dating you. 

Laurie James: Exactly. Exactly. And I talk about putting a list together when I work with clients who are in that place of, what are my values, and what are the values you want in your partner?

And then I have them put a whole list together of all the qualities that they want in another person. And that list, when I did that for myself, [00:37:00] it was two pages long. And then you circle the top five, 10, that are really important to you. And you keep going back to that list as you’re dating and checking, does this person meet- 

Kate Anthony: I think- … 

Laurie James: my non-negotiables? 

Kate Anthony: Yes. And what you’re really pointing to, Lori, is being Keeping yourself as emotionally regulated as you can throughout the process so that your prefrontal cortex, your discernment brain, is able to actually do the discernment work, right? Because when you’re flooded, when you’re triggered, when you are getting, are reacting from past stuff, whatever, you’re not discerning in the way that you would be.

It’s important. I think you said something, and I just wanna come back to it. You said we all make mistakes you’ll make mistakes. Sometimes, yes, it’s a mistake. Sometimes there are assholes [00:38:00] out there, and that’s not you. Again the shame, that’s not your mistake.

That’s their mistake. That was their actions. And I think it’s so important that we… I was… We were… We just binged the seas- second season of Worst Ex Ever, which- 

Laurie James: Oh, I haven’t watched that. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, God. But all of the women who had been violently abused by these people- … made themselves wrong for going back to them.

It’s like, “I know I should’ve known better. I can’t believe that I did this, but I did this- … and I went back.” And I just wanted to take every single one of them and be like, “That is not your fault.” Yeah. That is the system. That is the design. That is what these relationships do to us.

That is not you. And what I want is for, in these shows, for the survivors to say things like that. Yes. Not “I was such an idiot. I can’t believe…” Ugh. 

Laurie James: And it takes time to undo that pattern- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Laurie James: that’s in our bodies, [00:39:00] in our minds, in our nervous systems. That is not a pattern that gets undone overnight.

And in an Amazon instant gratification world, we want it to get undone overnight. Yep, we do. And it just doesn’t happen. It’s true. It just won’t. 

I’m eight years out of my marriage. Yeah, I was in a relationship for three and a half years, and there were parts of it that were good, but there were parts that weren’t, and it wasn’t…

And here’s the thing that I wanna s- maybe we can end on this, but there was a full, there was a body know. It was low level when I was dating my… There was a lot of good in the relationship, but when we were talking about moving forward, like moving in together, he wanted to get married.

I did not. The… And I have, I don’t think I’ll ever get remarried again. I could see living with somebody, but there was a body know. It was low. It was a whisper, but it’s like not this.” “Not this.” 

Kate Anthony: Listen, yes. 

Laurie James: Listen to that. And I [00:40:00] listened to it, and this new guy, it’s like I don’t have that with him.

Again, it’s still new, and that could come up again. But that little whisper, “No, not this”- is so important to listen to 

Kate Anthony: And there’s so much more we can go into, ’cause it is, it- you’re so right. But, and it’s also training your nervous system to trust yourself, to trust those no’s, when y- to be able to hear it and go, “Oh,” right?

And I think that there is a way of exercising that muscle, which is what do I need? Noticing the feeling in your body, noticing what’s happening, then noticing and then asking yourself what do I need? What do I need- … in this moment?” And when you ask yourself what you need, and then you provide it for yourself, you start to build trust in yourself.

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And that’s the beginning stage. [00:41:00] I feel like that’s- Yes … step one in learning to trust yourself, so that when you do have this low level no, you can notice it, ’cause you’ve been training the muscle- … to notice. And then you can trust it. 

Laurie James: And when you do that, you have more self-compassion for yourself, and you don’t blame yourself of “Why am I always attracting the bad boy, or the assholes- No.

… Or whatever it is?” Exactly. No. You know why? Because there are more of them out there. That’s why. That’s what we’re 

learning now. Because we’re doing the work. The listeners, the fact that you’re listening to this podcast means that you’re interested, either interested in doing the work or doing the work, and the…

unfortunately, that’s the disparity. Men are not doing the work at the same level. So the pool is gonna be much smaller. It’s not about you, the listener. But- 

Kate Anthony: That’s right … 

Laurie James: you and I both know and feel it, and you’ve, you’re now married. There are good guys out there. It- 

Kate Anthony: There’re not that many, but there are.

Laurie James: But there are. But there are. There [00:42:00] are. One more thing. We can get hypervigilant in the other direction. That’s why the healing work- Yes … is so important. That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Laurie James: It’s all guys- 

Kate Anthony: We become so avoidant, so- … are misogynistic. Yeah. 

Laurie James: Not all men are misogynistic. Yes, it’s growing, and yes, it’s an issue, but not all men are that way.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Laurie James: There are men out there that are respectful, loving, caring, and will treat you well. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, and they’re fighting an uphill battle, because I think most men are. And so- Yeah … the ones that aren’t have done actual work to not be. 

Laurie James: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. So anyway, we’re gonna continue this conversation on Laurie’s podcast.

Oh, Laurie, this has been a great conversation. And listen, guys, we’re not out here to scare you. We are here to keep you safe. So- 

Laurie James: Yeah … and support you- … on your journey. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. Laurie, where can everybody find you if they wanna get into this- … somatic healing work? 

Laurie James: Yeah. Yeah.

They can find me on my website, Laurie, L-A-U-R-I-E, middle [00:43:00] initial E, james.com. I’m also on Instagram at laurie.james. But yeah, that’s where you can find me, and I’ve got a freebie, and I’ve got, great introductory nervous system regulation starter kit if you wanna learn a little bit more about it.

Kate Anthony: But- Awesome. And all that will be in the show notes. Thank you so much- Yeah … Laurie. 

Laurie James: Thank you, Kate.