Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I am so excited that I have a return guest today, Chris Ratcliff. Woo-hoo. And we had a great conversation about anxious attachment, oh, I don’t know, was it, Was it two years at this point? Three years ago. Good God, what is wrong with us that we haven’t gotten back together sooner?

Chris has another book out. He is an anxious attachment style coach, I think we all know what that means, and an author who’s helped thousands of people across six continents to end the cycle of anxious attachment and have the healthiest relationships they’ve ever had. He’s got a n- a book out. Ne- it was- I was gonna say new book, but it’s not that new, but it’s new enough.

It’s called Needy No More: The Journal From Anxious to Secure Attachment.

Chris Rackliffe: The journey. Yes, the journey from anxious to secure attachment.

Kate Anthony: It’s Monday, [00:01:00] Chris. The journey. It is a journey, and what a journey it is. I love the title, Needy No More, ’cause we do. We feel so needy, or we’re labeled as- … needy. So I like that you have named this.

It’s a little provocative. So what do you mean by needy or needy no more?

Chris Rackliffe: It is a double entendre, right? Because I think immediately when people hear needy no more, they think, “Oh my goodness, that’s me. I’m needy. I need to fix myself. I need to get rid of that part of myself.” And that kind of draws people in.

But the intention behind it, the real meaning behind needy- needy no more, is you are not needy and you never were, and we need to stop using that label. There’s a chapter in the book called The Five Letter Word that talks about the word needy, and it actually uses a quote from the founder of attachment theory, [00:02:00] John Bowlby-

Who has famously said, “You’re only as needy as your unmet needs.” And yet so many of us are so quick to use this label to describe our experience. “Oh, I’m needy. I’m asking for too much.” And yet if you substitute an emotionally available person in for that emotionally unavailable person, you’re not asking for that much when someone is actually willing.

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yes. Thank you. So much of anxious attachment and yes, it has it, its roots in our childhood trauma and all of those things, right? But as somebody who suffered from anxious attachment most of my life, right? I did find when I was started… when I met my now husband and started dating somebody who was actually present, who, was not playing games, was not avoidant, was [00:03:00] not pl- doing any of the sort of push/pull mind games, and I had done my own work and all of those things.

Ah,

Chris Rackliffe: yes.

Kate Anthony: I was actually pretty secure, actually pretty fucking securely attached to somebody who didn’t make me feel crazy.

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah, 100%. It’s a dynamic. We’re always responding to somebody else’s energy. They’re responding to ours. So it is important to do what you named, which is to work on our own security, to move along the attachment spectrum to a more secure place.

No one is 100% secure.

And finding someone more secure than we are is only half the battle. Because a lot of what I hear of clients who reach out to me who are dating and who do meet someone who is stable maybe for the first time in their lives-

Kate Anthony: Yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: that is also really hard to accept.

The nervous system doesn’t know what to do with the predictability. There’s not this [00:04:00] cortisol spike, the adrenaline. There’s not this confusion, the-

Kate Anthony: Yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: the desire that triggers something in us to prove that we are worth the other person’s attention or- That’s right … that we have to work for them to choose us.

It- And that feels really weird, too …

Kate Anthony: it totally does. It feels it, it can feel boring, right? It can actually feel boring. Oh it’s healthy, but I don’t know. It- there- I’m not getting the adrenaline rush. Where’s the excitement? Where’s the excitement? Where’s the all of the things, right?

Exactly. And that can be really confront- The butterflies … the bu- Yes, the butterflies. Let’s talk about the butterflies. What are the butterflies? What do you think the butterflies are?

Chris Rackliffe: I think the butterflies are your nervous system recognizing the familiarity of this person. And on some level, releasing that kind of fluttering, that kind of response in your body because it’s saying, “This person might not be safe for us.”

That’s right.

Kate Anthony: It

Chris Rackliffe: [00:05:00] doesn’t mean that every time- … but a lot of times it does. Yeah. It is the recognition from the nervous system that this person isn’t fully available to us.

Kate Anthony: It’s it’s danger, right? It’s our-

Chris Rackliffe: Ah. Yeah.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. It’s anx- I think it’s anxiety, right?

If I think about the butterflies… Now, listen, I also had butterflies when I met my husband, right? I was like, totally, “Oh my God.” It was mostly like, “Oh, fuck. My whole life is about to change. Oh, fuck.” “Oh, fuck. Am I ready for this?” And I was. I was, right? And I had to b- and I had to my, my old coach used to call it getting current with myself, right?

Where I would, I u- I have, would have reactions that were historical, and then I’d be like, “Oh, that’s actually not who I am anymore.” So it’s like you gotta your nervous system also sometimes has to catch up-

Chris Rackliffe: Yes. Yeah …

Kate Anthony: to the response, right? Where I was like, “I don’t know if I’m ready for this.

I don’t know if I’m ready for this. Oh my God, everything’s gonna change right now.” I just knew it. I knew it. I knew my whole [00:06:00] life was about to change soon as- … I met him. And- Which is

Chris Rackliffe: scary …

Kate Anthony: which was terrifying on the one hand, and also and I had to g- I had to work myself through it and be like, yeah, and also you have been preparing for over a decade for this.

Chris Rackliffe: Yes, exactly. The work that you did on yourself allowed you to take the data from your nervous system and run that through your higher self. The body and the mind in sync can make really powerful choices.

When they’re out of sync, we tend to make choices that are misaligned with our true nature and what it is that we truly desire.

Kate Anthony: I love that. I love that. Say that again. The body and the mind, when they are in sync…

Chris Rackliffe: In sync-

…

Chris Rackliffe: You can make really powerful, aligned choices for yourself.

Because there’s a feedback loop, a biofeedback loop.

Kate Anthony: Okay.

Chris Rackliffe: And if you learn to listen to what your body is telling you without spiraling, [00:07:00] and to really hear and hold yourself, this is what this means when people say that you hold space for yourself.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: You’re feeling into the body, you’re listening to the sensations, and then you’re using your higher self, not from a space of activation or nervous system dysregulation, but you’re using your skills of discernment- … to be able to decipher, what is this reaction actually telling me?

Where is this coming from?

Is this the past coming into the present moment, and a lot of times it is, or am I simply responding to what’s in front of me? Now, it can be a mix of both, which can be confusing, and that’s why slowing down and really listening to what your body might be trying to tell you, and then giving yourself the opportunity to gather the data that you need through experiencing more maybe connection with this person or going on more dates with them-

Then you [00:08:00] can confirm if your gut is right.

Kate Anthony: And this is why it’s so important to take space between these interactions, right? Because you’re having this, you’re having this emotional thing, right? And this is why toxic people, abusers, narcissists w- will love bomb you because they’re trying not…

they’re making sure that you don’t have the space to check in with yourself to come down from the em- the physical into the mental, so you’re dropping into your body and cl- and allowing space for the mind to catch up, right? So when, in a love bombing relationship, in a toxic relationship, they’re not giving you the time for that.

Chris Rackliffe: Of course not. They’re gonna flood the zone.

Kate Anthony: And so it’s that time and space to get your brain back online- For sure … to say, “Okay, what’s actually happening here?” And some- and for me, like with [00:09:00] Ethan, it was like, “Okay, give me the time to get my brain back online so that I can calm myself down and be like no, this is good.

We’re good here.'” This is really good. Yeah. Because I had a man who was like, “Hey,” “I’m really intentional. I really like you. Here’s what I want. Here’s what I w- I propose. H- you know I’m gonna delete my dating profile now, and…” And I was like-

Chris Rackliffe: Wow … “

Kate Anthony: Ah.”

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah, what do you do with that?

My goodness. What do

Kate Anthony: I do with that, right? I think it’s two things, right? It’s like getting your brain back online to be discerning, to make decisions, to actually understand how you are feeling. So it’s the inner focus on me and also on the other person. Be more discerning. Were there red flags?

Once the butterflies have calmed down, what’s actually happening?

Chris Rackliffe: I love the way you just described that. I always say that the first movement is inwards.

Because we need to slow down, listen to the body. The body doesn’t speak in English or whatever, your primary language that you speak is.

It speaks [00:10:00] through, “Pay more attention to me,” and it will get louder and louder until you do.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: Listening first and foremost helps to create a new feedback loop of self-trust, of self-esteem, self-confidence, self-worth- … all of the self things, because you are the captain of your ship.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: Your brain is- the crown jewel of the nervous system, and if you don’t use the brain to engage with the body, it creates dissonance and a lot of discomfort, and then you can have the kind of thing that I hear people say all the time, which is I don’t know what to do.”

And actually, if we take a step back, oftentimes they do know what they need to do.

They just don’t wanna feel the discomfort or whatever emotional experience is going to arise- … when they do what they know- … they need to do.

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Chris Rackliffe: Whether that’s confronting, separating, divorcing- Yep … putting themselves back out [00:11:00] there. There’s a lot of different examples of this.

But the first movement is always inwards, because we have to identify, what the hell is going on here?

How do I describe and label this experience-

…

Chris Rackliffe: So that I can share it? That’s the other piece. Yeah. And many anxious attachers struggle with this, and oftentimes have been invalidated and shut down when they have opened up, so it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah.

Kate Anthony: You’re needy.

Chris Rackliffe: But- yeah, exactly. Needy. Yes.

Kate Anthony: All right.

Chris Rackliffe: Sometimes we’re even just flat out called that “Why do you have to make such a big deal of everything? Why are you so sensitive? Can’t we just have a good day? Why do we always have to talk?” These are things that we, as anxious attachers, are accustomed to hearing.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: So we get really scared to open up, but when we don’t open up and share our experience- We experience trauma because we are social creatures, and trauma is the experience of carrying pain [00:12:00] alone. We’re not meant to carry the pain alone. We are a tribal social species.

We’re meant to carry the pain and the hurt with each other to know that we don’t have to do that by ourselves.

So it doesn’t always mean going to a romantic partner. It might mean calling up your mom or your best friend or your therapist and/or coach. But it does mean that both elements need to be there, the internal relationship and then the external sharing so that- … you’re not isolating yourself.

Kate Anthony: Exactly. And if it, and if you are sharing an insecurity or a need with your partner, how do they re- like, and if you don’t if you’re too scared to because of how they’ve reacted in the past, that’s data, and it’s really important. If you do share it and they re- and they react in a way that is insensitive or unkind or uncaring, that’s data.

And you and you [00:13:00] actually need that data.

Chris Rackliffe: You do. And you might rob yourself of getting that data if you don’t speak up.

Because you need to identify a pattern, and a pattern needs multiple data points in or- order to emerge.

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Chris Rackliffe: So-

Kate Anthony: Yes …

Chris Rackliffe: essential

Kate Anthony: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanna talk a little bit about, the D word.

People who are going through divorce there’s a way in which w- we have come back to ourselves, right? That is a part of this, is that we have come back to ourselves and maybe, gathered a lot of data and recognized that “Oh, this is not it. This is not the thing.” But at the same time we are ripping ourselves wide open.

And it can be really anxiety producing in the- Sure … grieving process, right? What do you feel is happening for someone who is going through or coming out of a divorce who might be an anxious attacher, right? And it’s [00:14:00] triggering a lot of shit, and it’s not just maybe what’s happening here, and maybe it’s everything that they’ve ever experienced in their whole lives, or…

And they don’t know “Okay, who do I, how do I become someone else through this?”

Chris Rackliffe: Oh, my goodness.

Kate Anthony: It’s such a huge thing.

Chris Rackliffe: There is a level of grief that comes with divorce that unless you have experienced it, I don’t think you can truly relate to it. I’ve never been married. I’ve never been divorced, but I’ve been in the room with someone as they’ve been sharing either personally or professionally, what the experience is and it does feel like you are coming apart at the seams.

Kate Anthony: For sure.

Chris Rackliffe: I completely can relate to that in the loss of my mom and my dad and my sister-

…

Chris Rackliffe: and all of the different experiences that I’ve gone through where I’ve felt similarly. It’s never quite the same- It’s- … of course-

Kate Anthony: Sure. …

Chris Rackliffe: From one experience to another, but you can empathize with it.

To distill the experience of anxious attachment down to one sentence, [00:15:00] it would be Wanting to be chosen and feeling like you’re always robbed of that experience like you’re never fully chosen.

Kate Anthony: That’s right.

Chris Rackliffe: And what- Can confirm … could trigger that more… Yeah, w- exactly. What could trigger that more than a divorce?

It triggers all kinds of feelings of failure, like you didn’t do enough. You yourself weren’t enough, so there’s guilt, there’s shame.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: And it’s all wrapped up oftentimes in a cycle that has been on repeat for decades. I’m here to tell you, if you are watching and listening, you do not have to remain in that cycle.

There is another way.

And it is by recognizing that the pattern will continue to repeat because your nervous system is seeking out what is [00:16:00] familiar. You are not doing this on purpose. It is not your fault. It is never too late to start again and to unlearn the pattern and learn a new pattern. It does not mean that it will be without discomfort, because all growth is uncomfortable.

But you can learn a new way. Attachment styles are not fixed. No matter how many experiences you have had of invalidation, of trauma, of not feeling chosen, you will be shocked to know how quickly the nervous system can rebound and recover when you have the right support- Yeah … and when you move the right pieces into place.

Kate Anthony: I love that. That’s just that was like a bomb for my soul, right? I can just, I hear it f- as someone who is really feels like I’m on the other side of that. That’s not to [00:17:00] say that shit doesn’t get triggered, ’cause of course it does ’cause I’m a human being. I used to say all the time that I just wanna be chosen.

I just wanna be chosen. I said in my wedding vows two weeks ago that Ethan was the first person that I felt like really actively chose me.

Chris Rackliffe: Oh

Kate Anthony: my goodness. And it was the most healing thing in the world. But as you say what precipitated my ability to be, to accept being chosen was all of the work that I had to do to lay the foundation for that to not topple me.

Just listening to what you said, I was listening from my old self, right? And it’s just- It’s heartbreaking, it’s heart-wrenching to have that feeling of “I just wanna be chosen. I just wanna be chosen.” Everyone should be chosen. Everyone should e- experience that, should feel that. Yes. And I think so many of us [00:18:00] have that attachment wound because we didn’t feel that as children.

This is where the our attachment styles based on our experiences as adults not being chosen by this wishy-washy dating, the way the dating has become, or also is, and what is the combination of that meeting the childhood trauma, right?

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah. It’s always both. But I think something to identify here, Kate, that you did and that I want to name for folks so they can do it for themselves, too.

You chose yourself.

You chose yourself. Your now husband chose you because he identified in you someone who had chosen themselves.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: That’s how you start to attract people who are actually good for you. I saw a video the other day that said something along the lines of high standards are never a bad thing.

Yeah. They only block out what is not good for you and what is not in [00:19:00] alignment. And I know it’s hard because it can be isolating. You might go a long time in between dates if you’re putting yourself back out there and, many of us are touch deprived and there are reasons why we wanna go on dates and meet up with people and be chosen.

And-

Kate Anthony: Sure …

Chris Rackliffe: flirting is fun and-

Kate Anthony: Yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: all of the things. But- At the end of the day, it’s important to recognize that choosing yourself means also admitting the ways in which you have not done that in the past.

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Chris Rackliffe: That’s really hard to confront, and it needs to be done from a space of self-compassion and self-forgiveness because you did the best that you could with the tools and the knowledge that you had, and you still might have prioritized somebody else’s needs or compromised so much that you lost yourself.

You became codependent. There’s a lot of shame and guilt wrapped up in that, but love is never wasted, so please don’t look [00:20:00] back and think I shouldn’t have done that. I sh- I shouldn’t have given.” On some level, there might be truth to that because you lost yourself. You were not choosing yourself, and that creates an imbalance that is hard to come back from.

But you always have the opportunity to choose yourself now.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s

Chris Rackliffe: right. And that’s what a divorce can provide to you, the ability to choose yourself finally, and to not wait on somebody else to do that first.

Kate Anthony: That’s right.

Chris Rackliffe: First movement is inwards. Choose yourself. Other people will follow your lead.

Kate Anthony: Now, Chris, this is one of those things that we say, right? And people listen and they’re like okay. How? What does that- … mean? What does that actually mean?

Chris Rackliffe: In early dating, it means not canceling [00:21:00] plans or clearing your schedule to make yourself available for people.

Kate Anthony: Okay.

Chris Rackliffe: It means keeping your commitments to yourself.

So if you love practicing yoga, you don’t stop doing that when you meet someone. You keep doing it. It’s okay if you are thinking about them.

That is natural, and it’s okay to be excited-

Kate Anthony: And that’s

Chris Rackliffe: fun … about someone- And exciting, … when you connect. But that’s one of the earliest signs that you’re slipping into self-abandonment and codependency- that you are not choosing yourself. Okay. Keep your commitments to yourself. This is also one of the reasons why on day one, when someone signs up to work with me as their coach, they get a nine-step daily nervous system regulation practice. Because it gets you in the habit of choosing you.

Kate Anthony: And

Chris Rackliffe: it feels so good to pour into yourself.

This is not reinventing the wheel-

…

Chris Rackliffe: But it’s creating structure, habits, [00:22:00] and routines.

So many people aim for the big breakthrough, and they wanna experience this big moment of realization. You know how you do it? By learning to pay attention to yourself, to your body- Yeah … by cultiv- … ating self-awareness, presence, slowing down like we talked about.

And so a lot of this does boil down to the mundane stuff, how you choose yourself in very small moments, in small ways. And you don’t have to do this perfectly, by the way.

Kate Anthony: You won’t.

Chris Rackliffe: But- You

Kate Anthony: won’t. You won’t.

Chris Rackliffe: You won’t.

Kate Anthony: You

Chris Rackliffe: won’t.

But the more consistent you can be, the better off you will be because you’re building a muscle.

Kate Anthony: That’s, yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: And then when the time comes, when you do meet someone and you’re excited about them, you’re not going to immediately throw all of that away because you know where that leads, and because the structure, the framework, the foundation-

Kate Anthony: Yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: is in place for you to build upon. [00:23:00]

Kate Anthony: I love that. I love that there’s a nine-step system, right?

There… I think for me, it… I was looking, thinking back of what were my things? One of them in choosing myself was actually for a while choosing not to date. I was like-

…

Kate Anthony: This is not for me right now. This is a shit show that I don’t really have the energy f- to try to manage anymore.

I’m just… it was too much output that I just couldn’t deal with for eight years.

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: And in that time, I went through, so I went through health crises. I went through just multiple health crises in a row, all sorts of stuff, right? And one of the things that I did that I now identify as choosing myself, which I hadn’t, so thank you, was that I started being like more consistent with my, with exercise.

Just, getting up at 5:30 in the morning twice a week And going to a small group training facility and busting [00:24:00] my ass with strength training. Waking up at 5:30 in the morning to go work out is not easy.

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: It sucked. I did it twice a week at 6:30, and then once a week at, on Saturday at a normal time.

But I didn’t wanna get out of bed. R- but I, every day I did it because it was a commitment that I made to myself. I was also paying in, a lot of money for

Chris Rackliffe: it. Yeah. I was like- That helps … “Get your ass out of

Kate Anthony: bed, Catherine.”

Chris Rackliffe: You had some skin in the game, yeah.

Kate Anthony: Yes, I did. I had skin in the game, and I…

And it did it… Exercise, especially strength training, especially for women, is an incredible confidence builder. It is it is so good for us in so many ways. But when you start to know yourself as badass and strong and you’re lifting heavy-ass weights, and you’re doing shit that you’re like, “Okay, my 20-year-old self didn’t do shit like this,” you feel something about yourself.

Chris Rackliffe: And it, it does begin to manifest physically, too. You-

Kate Anthony: Oh, yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: obviously it’s important to do it because you want to do it. [00:25:00] Seeing the results externally helps as well. So if you’re doing it to lose weight or build muscle or both that’s a really good example because you can see the fruits of your labor.

Whereas something like a meditation practice, it’s, it can be challenging to see- Yeah … until you’re in the moment of activation, and you have a couple of seconds that because you have proactively been meditating and paying attention to what’s going on in your body and what sensations mean and how to be with those experiences- ha, you have bought yourself a couple of seconds of clarity. Yes. And that can be the difference between taking a complete left turn and into a space of disconnection and really tough conflict, or not, and saying, “You know what? I’m a little activated. I need a break. Let’s pause and return to this.” But I do think the small commitments are so often overlooked, and there’s something that I call the [00:26:00] one-degree method-

Which is an accumulation of small choices over time that add up to be greater than the sum of their parts.

Kate Anthony: Yes.

Chris Rackliffe: And this is my coaching philosophy, and you felt this by getting up, motivating yourself, keeping the commitment to yourself, going to the gym. Then you start seeing the external results.

You’re establishing a feedback loop that we’ve been- … talking about.

And then you start to see, “Oh you know what? This feels good. I’m releasing endorphins.” It’s also nice to get up before everybody else is. You have some peace- Love that … before the world is chaotic. And everything is moving.

I wrote my first book, It’s Good to See Me Again, at 5:00 in the morning when I was living in New York before going to my regular corporate job. This is before I even became a coach, and it was so peaceful. And I, there are very few experiences in my life that I look back on and I’m like, “Wow, that felt really good to choose myself.”

Yeah. But you can also [00:27:00] do it in other ways. You don’t have to wait for dating or being triggered- … romantically- Yeah … to practice this.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: It boils down to speaking up for yourself regarding boundaries.

Kate Anthony: Huh?

Chris Rackliffe: Saying these five words, this is how I boil boundaries down into in the book, “That doesn’t work for me.

That doesn’t work for me.” Practice saying that. Period. I love it. And that is also you choosing yourself, even if it’s just a work meeting and someone’s trying to coordinate with you, and they see that you’re open. Your open availability does not mean that you have to commit every single second to somebody else just because that’s when it works for them.

Say no.

Kate Anthony: That doesn’t work for me.

Chris Rackliffe: I- that doesn’t work for me. Yeah.

Kate Anthony: I love that. I love that. Distilling boundaries down to five words. Boom. That doesn’t work

Chris Rackliffe: for me. That doesn’t work for me. Yes. Yeah.

Kate Anthony: And we don’t have to explain it and, right? It just, that doesn’t work for me. What else you got?

Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: Said.

Kate Anthony: What are some other [00:28:00] ways… I don’t want, you don’t need to give away your nine-step process here, but what are some other things that you believe in as a practice to help r- really rewire this nervous system?

Chris Rackliffe: A lot of it does get into biofeedback. I’m happy to give the full list if I can- Go for it

remember all nine things- Sure. By the way … in one go.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: But breathwork is a big part of it.

Kate Anthony: Okay.

Chris Rackliffe: There’s something called the physiological sigh, which is a full inhale followed by a little bit of an extra reach for breath. So Hold at the top.

Sigh all of the air out of your body. I have my clients practice this five times a day. You can do this in the elevator on the way to a big meeting. You can do it in the car. You can do it before walking into an interview. You can do it anytime, anywhere. It’s free. I love it. And- It helps to reset the nervous system.

Kate Anthony: Okay, great. That’s great. Do that before- That’s one … [00:29:00] walking into your attorney’s office, before mediation. You can do that all the way through mediation when things are, when you start getting activated.

Chris Rackliffe: Yes, absolutely. Pay attention to the breath. It is one of the most important biofeedback signals.

And I know it’s cliche breathe, but it’s true. And one of the things we don’t even think about is our breath is one of the only things that is with us from the first moment until the final one that we- Yeah … experience in life. It is the current of life. It is there with you.

Befriend it and recognize that your body, when it is starting to activate, whew, will automatically make your breathing more shallow. So even just elongating the breath and dropping it down into the belly, softening the belly, relaxing the jaw, unsticking your tongue from the roof of your [00:30:00] mouth. These aren’t a part of the practice, but they do help.

Kate Anthony: They do

Chris Rackliffe: help. They are a part of listening to your nervous system and your body, and releasing the tension, because so many of us carry so much stress without letting it out. This also isn’t a part of the daily practice, but shake. Literally release the tension from your body. People with restless leg syndrome, shake your legs.

Get out the energy. Going for a walk can do this. Working out can do this. I ask my clients to move their body for a minimum of 15 minutes a day. That’s the bare minimum. You can do more than that, of course. It can be a walk. It doesn’t have to be a run. I’m not, a fitness professional or anything- Yeah

like that. Like-

…

Chris Rackliffe: But you need to move your body. Stress and trauma are stored in the body deeply. So movement helps a lot. Breath helps a lot. Meditation or mindfulness, paying attention to the body’s signals, cultivating a practice of doing that is really powerful. [00:31:00] I also find that cold exposure is really one of the best ways to practice the body’s stress response because you’re immediately going to go into fight or flight.

You’re gonna hyperventilate. Your breathing is going to get shallow. This is an opportunity for you to intentionally practice. You get control of this experience. You don’t in the real world when your boss hasn’t responded to you in three days, or you haven’t heard from your best friend in 24 hours, or your romantic partner is nowhere to be found or is actively telling you that you’re too sensitive or too much or too needy.

Cold exposure can help to do this in small doses. You don’t need to take a fully cold shower or start cold plunging, but practice this in small doses for yourself. Women in particular are very sensitive to cold exposure. They respond differently than men do. There are physiological [00:32:00] reasons for this, but you can still practice the stress response.

It’s uncomfortable for a reason. You’re practicing being with the discomfort.

Those are some examples.

Kate Anthony: I love those. I love all of those things, and I like them being a practice that, Because what, as you said, what we’re trying to do is regulate your nervous system so that when you are confronted with something big, like a divorce, like a, going to court.

I have my clients, when they go to co- if they have to go to court, bring an ice cold water bottle. Bring something that’s gonna ground them in that, m- in that meeting, in that hard, terrifying meeting. But the idea that you practice this ongoingly so that you’re kinda primed for it, and that you can It’s, you’re taking back control over it, right?

Like you’re, it’s so that you’re not g- take, you’re not completely hijacked in that moment.

Chris Rackliffe: Exactly. Yes, and this is [00:33:00] a form of re-parenting-

Kate Anthony: … That

Chris Rackliffe: you can do with yourself proactively. What we’re trying to do is to retrain the nervous system for two things, presence and tolerance. So building presence in the nervous system allows you to recognize what’s happening.

That’s what we were talking about with slowing down, listening to the biofeedback, and identifying what the hell is even going on here. Why did that trigger me so much? Not that you need a reason, but it does help with validating the experience. And then the second thing, tolerance, this isn’t about learning to tolerate an endless amount of stress or mistreatment.

No. But it is about not letting it hijack your day so that if something does trigger you and it used to just derail you for the entire day, maybe it does for an hour or maybe it does for 20 minutes, but you’re able to bounce back more quickly. Your window of tolerance has expanded-

…

Chris Rackliffe: So that you’re able [00:34:00] to return to baseline, to clarity, and to the external movement that we talked about more quickly.

So many anxious attachers beat themselves up. I just heard this from a client the other day, “Why can’t I talk about how I feel in the moment?” And I always remind people-

Kate Anthony: Yeah …

Chris Rackliffe: that’s because you’re not ready to.

You have to meet your body where it is. You cannot force clarity. You cannot force yourself out of the emotional experience before it has fully completed, and that requires presence and an expanded window of tolerance that is built proactively by some of these practices.

So please don’t beat yourself up if you take a little while to process. Your speed is your speed. It’s not a problem, so long as you don’t try to beat yourself up about it or-

Kate Anthony: Yes …

Chris Rackliffe: try to criticize your way to healing. It doesn’t work like that. Harshness doesn’t heal. [00:35:00]

Kate Anthony: I love that. No, it does not. And it, and n- all of this is so that you can, again, put that space betw- so that you can then go, “What’s going on with me?”

So that I can either communicate it or communicate internally or- … externally, whichever is most appropriate in that moment. Yes. Often both, right? But when your nervous system is hijacked, we don’t, we’re not at choice, period. Correct. And so what we’re doing in this process, and what you’re talking about in this practice, is helping you be able to come back to choice.

In those moments or after those moments, right?

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: 100%. You’re building back your sense of agency by continuing to choose yourself in these micro moments, and trust me when I say they add up.

You will feel so much different than you do now if you practice- Yeah … this for 30 days, 60 days, 90 days.

My coaching work with clients is 12 weeks, but [00:36:00] often I see change within the first three to four weeks in them. Sure.

Kate Anthony: Yeah.

Chris Rackliffe: They can start to- … recognize, oh, wait this example from their life, whatever it might be, actually I was able to manage this a lot better

Kate Anthony: Because they suddenly have this connection to self that-

Chris Rackliffe: Gradually then suddenly.

Yes

Kate Anthony: Yeah. I love that. I love that work. I love all of your work, Chris, and in your book you do talk about how in the book you’ve got, you- there’s two parts to it, right?

Chris Rackliffe: Yes.

Kate Anthony: S- describe what those two are for everybody. The first part- This is the whole, really what we’ve been talking about, I think, right?

Chris Rackliffe: Yeah, absolutely. The first part of the book is the wounding- … and that is all about what happened that got you to these responses in your nervous system and in your life. It helps to create clarity for an origin story, although you don’t necessarily need that [00:37:00] for healing, but many people desire it, so- that’s where we start. Okay Getting clarity on why do I respond this way? Where does it come from? What are the series of events that led to these preferences, to these inclinations, to these automations oftentimes- … in the nervous system?

Kate Anthony: Sure.

Chris Rackliffe: And then the second part of the book is the work. So you have the wounding and then the work.

So the first part of the book answers the question, why am I like this? And the second part of the book answers the question, what the hell do I do about it?

Kate Anthony: What do I do now? Yeah. I love it. I love it. Chris, where can everyone find you, your work, your book, all of the things?

Chris Rackliffe: Needy No More: The Journey from Anxious to Secure Attachment is available on Amazon, so you can find it there.

If you have Kindle Unlimited, you can download it right now and start- Oh, great … reading immediately. Wonderful. So it’s on Kindle Unlimited. You can also download the Kindle version or paperback version as well. In terms of [00:38:00] socials, you can find me most active on Instagram and TikTok, where I have a community of over 152,000 folks now, which is wild.

Amazing. Would love for those watching and listening to join. That’s @crackliffe with two F’s. C-R-A-C-K-L-I-F-F-E. And then my website is crackliffe.com. So if what I’ve shared today resonated with you and you wanna start rewiring your nervous system and retraining your responses, then you can set up a free consultation with me at crackliffe.com/coaching.

Kate Anthony: Amazing. Chris, I love talking to you. I love the work- Likewise … that you’re doing. Thank you … I feel like we could have these conversations for hours. Thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on the book and all of the things, all of the work. It’s great.

Chris Rackliffe: Thank you, Kate. I am sincerely grateful for our second convo, and can’t wait for more.

We’ll see.

Kate Anthony: Yes, for sure. Absolutely. Keep it going.