Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I have with me returning, my returning guest Jackie Miller. She is a high-conflict divorce coach. She is a speaker, author, and she d- has a book out now called Winning: Rewiring Your Brain and Reclaiming Your Life After Toxic Love. And she’s also the host of the podcast, Out of Crazy Town.

She blends neuroscience, psychology, and practical strategy to help people break free from toxic relationship dynamics, reclaim their power, and rebuild a life that feels peaceful, purposeful, and free. 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Amen. Amen. 

Jackie Miller: Amen, sister. Let’s do it. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, seriously. That’s really what it is, right? It’s like when we leave the toxic relationship

So I often say it’s like we legally divorce, we, financially divorce, we [00:01:00] physically move, like all the things, and then somehow the relationship dynamics follow us because we don’t necessarily emotionally divorce or- Yeah … think in this, the … It’s like your nervous system hasn’t extricated from this person.

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jackie Miller: That’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. And 

Kate Anthony: then we’re not free. 

Jackie Miller: And then we’re not free. And then if you have somebody who’s got this interest in keeping you there- … you’re supposed to move on, and someone’s actively, constantly trying to trigger you to keep you emotionally entangled.

So it’s like you’re just over here trying to heal and move on, and s- someone just keeps coming after you emotionally, and they are very strategic about it. Oh, yeah, like it’s their job. It is. They really feel that it is their job- Yes … to keep you emotionally hooked forever. Yes. Yes. And so what’s that, like

Kate Anthony: What’s that about on our end, right? What is going … we’re just trying [00:02:00] to be … We’re just trying to move on and heal. Yeah. Or I think sometimes We’re just trying to move on and heal, but we actually think that the divorce will be the end of it- Yeah … and that w- we’re actually not actively trying to move on and heal.

We just are like I’m divorced. Let’s move on.” 

Jackie Miller: Assume. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Exactly. And there’s actually work to be done there, especially when you’re dealing with somebody who is toxic. 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. Yep. There is work to be done, and I think that it’s a little bit of a bummer. I call it the divorce hangover, ’cause the divorce is final, or you, even you move out and you kinda consider yourself divorced.

And then you’re like, “What the fuck is this?” “Why am I waking up still angry? I can’t stop thinking about what they do.” Or I call them the three hooks, the need for closure, the need to prove yourself, the need for justice. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, 

Jackie Miller: yeah. And you wanna see o- one or all of those three things, and they’re not happening, and you’re not getting it, and you feel like you can’t move on until you get those.

[00:03:00] And it’s a, kind of a bummer to realize, like you said, “Oh, I must have a lot of work to do, yeah. “Just, extracting myself from this person wasn’t just the magic pill that took-” … “care of everything.” But what I want people to know is there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not broken.

And very often, the reason we’re still in rumination or angry or experiencing the divorce hangover or, a relationship is over hangover, is that there was a biology change. There was- … we were changed. Our nervous system was changed- Yes … while we were in this relationship. We were walking around on eggshells.

I don’t care if it was just for months or years. And your nervous system is there to protect you. And when it, when the threat doesn’t go away immediately, and even if that threat is just- negative, demeaning comments- … the death by a thousand paper cuts- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Jackie Miller: that still puts your nervous system on high alert- Yeah

for an extended period of time. [00:04:00] We’re not supposed to be in, on alert for extended periods of time. So your body has to start making changes to accommodate that. Our bodies are magnificent, beautiful things, and they adjust to our environment. But what happens is when we are exposed to these chronic environments and things like y- hormones like cortisol are constantly circulating- Yeah

And they’re, which are there again to put us into fight or flight when we need to get away from a bad situation quickly. But when we’re there for extended periods, our brains actually change shape as well. Your amygdala, which is your alarm center starts to swell. Now you have more of it, and it starts taking over, and it tells your prefrontal cortex, the executive functioning part of your brain, the part that helps you think rationally, “Hey, stand down, I got this.

We’re still on alert mode.” Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to bed. Go to bed. You’re off. You’re off. F- take five. No, take 20. No, take… And so when you’re wondering like, “Why do I feel like I can’t even make a rational [00:05:00] decision?” There’s nothing wrong with you. Yeah. You actually can’t.

Your body makes some changes. You actually can’t. And then even the hippocampus shrinks, which is your emotional regulator. Jesus Christ, no wonder you can’t calm down and stop ruminating. Your brain is literally biologically changed after, being exposed for lengthy periods- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Jackie Miller: to these situations that were not healthy for us.

Kate Anthony: Yes. And all of this stuff is happening in our brain. It’s all happening in our nervous system. We, it’s not conscious, right? And so many of us don’t even know that has been what’s, that we don’t know that’s what happened, right? 

Jackie Miller: Why would you? Yeah. Why would you understand that?

Why would you know that until you had to? 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Until you studied it and was like, “Oh, that’s what’s happening here.” 

Jackie Miller: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, which is, and it’s exhausting because when you’ve been living in this level of toxicity for as long as we have, it’s like not only does this thing, our brain change when every single [00:06:00] time there is this experience or feedback or whatever, right?

We go into this loop. This, there’s a feedback loop. Our brain goes, “Oh, I know this,” because our brain actually does know this. It does. We’ve been living this for 20 years, 25 years- Yes … 30 years, whatever. It’s not just that our brain goes into this mode. It goes into a very familiar mode. It’s “Oh- Yeah … I know how to do this.”

Except now we don’t want this anymore. We worked really hard to get- Get the fuck out of this. 

Jackie Miller: Yes. Just make it stop. This isn’t fair. Like I just want it to stop. I wanna stop thinking about it. I wanna stop… And it I have women tell me that all the time, just please make it stop.

It’s- And when I wrote the book Winning, and I don’t wanna scare people away, it’s not super science-y. It’s just explaining to you, again, that nothing’s wrong with you, and just some, top level, like what happened to you. And I liken it to this I give suggestions in the book to things that you do to make it stop.

But it’s not just enough to know [00:07:00] that, that our nervous systems, were trying to protect us, and then you try to move on. Like you said, that’s not enough. It’s kinda like when you go to the doctor. You have two patients, they both have sinus infections, they go to two different doctors.

One doctor says, “Here, go home and take these pills three times a day, it’ll, you’ll feel better.” The other one goes, “I’m gonna give you these pills. You have an infection, so you have bugs growing in your sinuses. You’re gonna take it three times a day because you need to keep constant levels in your system.

And what, it’s going to kill the bugs. You have to take it the entire 10 days. First of all, you’re not gonna feel better after the first three days because your, just won’t feel the effects yet. Then you’re gonna start to feel better, but you can’t stop because then it will have only killed off the weaker bugs, and if you stop before you’re done…”

My point is- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Jackie Miller: when you under- Yes … stand why you’re doing something and how it works- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Jackie Miller: the person who got that talk is gonna take all of their meds. That’s right. The other one might take them for three days and go, “I don’t, this didn’t do anything.” 

Kate Anthony: Or, “Oh, but I feel better now, so I guess I’m, I don’t have to…”

Yes. Yes. Yeah. [00:08:00] Yes. I am that person. I am the per- I need to know everything. I need to know what’s ha- when I’m at the doctor, I wanna know what they’re doing to me. I had a God-awful biopsy on my boob- Oh … a week before my wedding. 

Jackie Miller: Oh, I’m sorry. 

Kate Anthony: They were like, “What are you doing here?” And I was like, “I just wanna get it over with.”

Jackie Miller: Just… 

Kate Anthony: yeah. I was like, “Just bruise the outside so that the inside-” Yeah … doesn’t… Oh. Everything’s fine. Everything’s fine. 

Jackie Miller: Okay. Okay, good. Good. 

Kate Anthony: But I’m, like, in this contraption. I’ve never had a biopsy on my breast before. I’m in this contraption, I’m lying down, my boob is through a thing. They’re like, “Do y-“, and they asked me this.

Said, “Are you the kind of person who wants to know- 

Jackie Miller: I love 

Kate Anthony: that … what we’re doing?” 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. Yeah. “

Kate Anthony: Or are you the kind of person who doesn’t, does not wanna hear a thing?” And I was like- Yeah … “I want you to tell me every step of the way what’s happening. I wanna know you’re gonna hear this, you’re gonna feel this.

This is what we’re doing now.” And they just talked me through everything, and I am that person. I have to- Yeah … know. I wanna know what’s [00:09:00] happening. Because then I- Absolutely … i, maybe I feel like there’s a a semblance of control, or I feel like I’m, like, prepared. 

Jackie Miller: Yes, exactly. A- and that is why, we hear about breathing and how good it is for us, and going out in nature, and journaling, and- that’s awesome But here’s the thing. Yeah. All of those things really do help you. And y- and doing all of them and trying all of them and figuring out the ones that work for you are super important, but I want you to understand why- Why … so you keep doing it, so you- That’s right

keep taking your antibiotics. So when you can’t sleep because you’re ruminating, going outside and going for walks in nature… first of all, the chronic stress it compromises our immune systems, and then lots of times… A- and I’m, by the way, I’m a big fan of laying on the couch for two days straight if you need to, so I’m all for it.

Yeah. But go outside and take a quick walk because when you go outside and your body and your eyeballs actually get to see what time of day it is, even when it’s cloudy. There are special [00:10:00] cells in our eyes that receive the photons of light, and they help us decide what time of day it is so that when night comes, we can sleep.

Is it a magic sleep fix? No. Is it going to help? 100%. Did you know that trees give off chemicals that activate your natural killer cells that are lymphocytes that fight tumors and fight viruses? We are made to be out in nature, so I’m not just saying go for a walk ’cause it’s a blah, blah, fluffy thing to say.

I want people to understand, and all these little activities stack, help, stack ’em, help. Every single thing you’re doing. So if you’re like, “I got off the couch and just went for a walk today and that’s all I did,” and you’re shaming yourself, no, girl, you went for a walk and all these amazing things happened to your body that were so good for you.

So- Yeah … I want people to take the, keep taking their antibiotic, and I want them to understand why, that all these seems… They’re simple, but they’re not easy. Exactly. Exactly, yes. And I l- I, I really do love [00:11:00] that, Jackie. A few years a- 10 years ago or something, we started talking about how you have to write gratitude lists if you wanna be hap- pa- there is a happiness formula, right?

Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: A gratitude, gratitude list is one of those things, and I was always like I, I need to know why. You need to tell me why- Yes … or I will not do it. I need to know why. Yes. And it’s I’m like, “Prove it.” What the fuck are you talking about? Writing down things I’m grateful for, why?

And then I learned the neuroscience behind it. 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: You’re training your brain to be looking for positive things, right? At first- Yeah … I’m thinking back on my day going, “Okay, this happened. Okay, I’m grateful for these five things.” Eventually, your brain starts seeking those things throughout the day, ’cause you’re like- “i gotta write. Oh, I’m gonna write that down when I… oh, this happened. I’m gonna write that down,” right? 

Jackie Miller: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Or you, first you start noticing, “Oh, that happened. Oh, that happened. Oh, that… Oh, I can write that down.” And then your brain starts seeking, so now we’re looking for positive [00:13:00] things, and the negative things that might have been dominating our thoughts are starting to take a backseat.

It’s not that they’re not happening or we don’t notice them, but because we’re training our brain to be noticing the positive throughout the day- … we beco- it, it increases our levels of happiness, right? Now, that’s a way more compelling thing than just write down three things you’re grateful for before bed every day.

Jackie Miller: Kate, thank you so much. So you just totally sold my book for me, because that’s why I’m like, this is what people need to understand. Like- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Jackie Miller: and just to backtrack a little, the reason I named it Winning is- … so often as we’re either trying to extract ourselves from these relationships or, God forbid, you’re in the family court system and you’re fighting financial and custody battles, it always feels like we’re fucking winning, because they’re willing to lie.

They’re willing to, manipulate. They’re willing to do all these things that just- Yeah … aren’t us, and they’re- they’re they s- successfully turn the neighbor against us. And they… our kids came [00:14:00] home and start, back-talking us, and they never used to. And there’s all these little things where they’re winning.

They’re always winning. Yeah. And I’m like, w- it hit me one day when I was going through it, and I thought, “I can’t live like this anymore.” That’s right. This I’m mad, I’m angry. I’m like, I’m- Yes … I’m, he’s, he is winning- He is … because I’m hijacked all the time. I left. I’m not under the same roof anymore, and he still fricking has me.

And I thought, “No more.” One day, I was like, “No more.” And then I’m just, I am a big science-y person, which is why I had to- Yeah, I love it … put, write this aspect of the book. Yeah. I went and researched it. Yeah. And I was like, okay. And, all the things I talked about with the brain, but yes, all these things that we do with the gratitude, there is a science behind it.

The walking, the journaling, the breathing. All the things- Yes … that I explain that give you the knowledge to do it. And, you know- I love how you pointed out you write down the gratitude, then your brain does this, then it starts noticing it, and it’s a little bit of a gradual proc- … process.

Thank you for saying [00:15:00] that because it’s like if you want washboard abs, you go to the gym, you do 30 sit-ups, you don’t notice anything. You go the next day, you do 30. You don’t notice anything. You go day three, you do 40. You feel it, but you still probably don’t see anything. Though, when you feel the, you- the fibers are tearing and you’re sore, you’re making biological changes in your body.

I’m here to just promise you that. Because your brain may not be sore, or it might. But the gra- writing day three of the gratitude, y- changes are happening. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. That’s right. Changes 

Jackie Miller: are happening. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. You don’t feel it. You don’t… Or you don’t see it, you don’t feel it yet.

Yes. But the layering. I always talk about neural pathways- Yes … as if they are, it’s like a fibers of a rope, right? It’s like you lay one A to B. It’s weak. It’s like- … it’s just like a flimsy fiber, but you lay A to B every single day- … over and over, eventually you have a very thick, [00:16:00] strong connection.

Jackie Miller: Yes. ‘

Kate Anthony: Cause that rope is m- that very strong, thick, sturdy rope is made up of lots and lots of tiny little fibers. Yes. And you have done the work to lay each of those fibers, right? Now, a- as you said we don’t feel that in our brain necessarily. But, it is one of those things where you look back and you go, “Oh, shit, I don’t do that thing anymore,” or- Oh, yes

right? In six months we look back and we go- 

Jackie Miller: Or that thing didn’t trigger me like it used to. Or, I ha- I have a… I love stories from people, and people always ask me my personal… I’ll tell you the story. Right after my divorce, the new girlfriend, of course, was brought on board immediately- Of 

Kate Anthony: course, 

Jackie Miller: right away

to be subbed in as mom. 

Kate Anthony: Right away. Yes. Always, guys, always. He will always re-partner right away because they cannot function without us. 

Jackie Miller: No. So I walk into my daughter’s volleyball game in the gym, and they’re there. And I’m like, “I’m good. I got this. I’m good.” 10 steps in, I notice my heart rate’s coming up, and I’m like, “I’m okay.

I’m fine. It’s no big deal.” [00:16:00] 20 steps in, I’m like, “Oh, here it goes. Here comes the sweat, this elephant sitting on my chest.” I get closer to the bleachers where they’re sitting, and I’m like, “I have to hide a full-blown panic attack right now.” And I’m like, “God damn it. I thought I was okay.” My body was like, “No, you’re not.

We noticed the threat. We see it. Ha. You’re, nope, you’re not getting out of this one. You are going to have a panic attack.” Oh, God. So I’m doing the work, I’m doing the work. I’m, I meditated. I’m doing the work, I’m doing the work, and I’ll never forget walking into a volleyball, gym months and months later, and then they’re sitting there, and I sat down.

It was cute. I wasn’t thinking about it. I was talking to a friend, and all of a sudden I went, “I’m fine. I’m okay.” Oh, my God. Oh, my God. “I’m fine.” But that’s what I want- Yeah … people to know. Don’t stop. Don’t stop. That’s right. Do all the things. Do the meditation, take the walks. R- read the books.

I’m always like, “Listen to positive podcasts. Don’t leave your brain unattended.” Yeah. It’s my favorite saying. Do not leave your brain unattended if you’re not in a good place. Start putting on the music, putting on the- … positive podcasts. Go for a walk. Yes. Go cuddle your dog. Yes. Do all [00:18:00] the things.

Kate Anthony: Absolu- Working … yes. Absolutely. And it will. It does work. It doesn’t feel like it, it’s working. It really doesn’t. And it’s one of my favorite things, I’m sure you’ve experienced this too with clients, where you s- where we s- will see it sometimes before they will, and they’ll be like…

And we’ll be like, “Have you noticed that you are-” Yes … “when we talked about this very same subject a month ago, two months ago, you were a hot mess, and right now you are just like, you’re fine.” “

Jackie Miller: Do you remember when you called me ’cause he filed an RFO to blah blah blah, and yeah, you were absolutely-” A wreck, understandably.

And you just told me you filed another one, and we’re just talking like it’s a Tuesday and we’re having tea. And I’m like that’s a big change. That’s a difference. Big change. You’re absolutely right, and it just I want people to know that because I just, it so often feels like you’re not climbing out of the hole.

Yes. Like you’re not getting anywhere, and I need you to know that you are. Yes. And you’re not alone. And again, you’re not broken. Your body did what it was supposed to do. Thank your bo- thank you, [00:19:00] body. I don’t need you to do it anymore, but thank you, which is another thing I love to do, Kate. Yeah. I’m a big fan of talking to yourself out loud.

Kate Anthony: Oh, good. I love it. 

Jackie Miller: And I try to practice what you preach. You guys, I’m telling you, this is a hack. Do it in your car if you have to. We’re alone in our cars a lot. So the other day, I had to practice what I preach. I was having a little anxiety, wasn’t sure why. I was in the backyard holding my coffee and letting my dog go to the bathroom.

And so I thought, “Okay, Jackie, do your thing.” And I was like, “I’m feeling anxious right now. I’m not really sure why.” I put my hand on my chest. I’m like, “I feel it right here.” Said all this out loud. I’m like, “Okay, what are the things it could be?” And I started talking through, and then I got to the third thing, and it was some email I got that…

And I’m like, “Oh, that’s it.” “That email upset me more than I thought.” And I told myself out loud, “Jackie, you’re fine. No one’s dying. You’re not sick. People get these emails sometimes. You’re not perfect. You screwed something up.” Whatever it was, I don’t remember. Yeah. But when you talk to yourself out loud, it, [00:20:00] A, it removes you from the problem.

Yes. It lets you look at it from the outside. Yeah. Yes, I love that. It’s like talking to a friend- … but it’s in your own voice. Yeah. You name it so that you can tame it and talk through it. And again, it, all these wonderful biological things, happen that I can’t even fully explain, but just another- Yeah

tool to use to help us regulate our systems.

Kate Anthony: It, and talking to ourselves, talking out loud, I like the idea of you are taking yourself… It gives you objectivity, right? It’s- 

Jackie Miller: Objectivity. Thank you. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. There’s space there. 

Jackie Miller: There is space. 

Kate Anthony: Which I really yeah, and I- thank you for also bringing up that yeah, we…

We’re the coaches, but we’re living this. Like- 

Jackie Miller: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: we’re living this all the time in various ways and whatever. My, my ex was being a tool recent- I don’t know how long ago, a couple [00:23:00] months ago. Like a serious- … big time tool. And sometimes- Ugh … I get so… I still get so mad.

Yeah. And we have a pretty good relationship all thing… he was at my wedding, okay. 

Jackie Miller: We have a 

Kate Anthony: pretty good relationship. Right on. I have the best picture of him and my husband right now, which is just, like- … the funniest thing. But I do… Man, that man can trigger the fuck out of me- still. Yeah. And I still have to go through my process of like- 

Jackie Miller: yes … okay 

Kate Anthony: this 

Jackie Miller: isn’t 

Kate Anthony: yours. 

Jackie Miller: And thank you for mentioning that, because we can’t completely get rid of triggers. Our body- No … and you don’t want to. That, that trigger that you experience is the same one that’s gonna have you slam on the brakes when someone swerves into the lane- on the freeway. So we don’t wanna stop our nervous systems, but it’s really important to know that you can build tools to, work around them, work over them, work through them, and in… but again, there’s nothing wrong with you. Thank you body, thank you amazing body that’s so smart and nervous system that’s so smart that it just is trying to perceive threats and protect you.

But it’s good to know the difference between [00:25:00] my ex-husband’s being a tool and someone almost hit me on the freeway. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, exactly. And when we learn these things, then we can say, like you said with your coffee in the garden, you’re like Nobody’s dying. Because our brains don’t, and bodies maybe don’t know the difference, actually.

Our nervous system doesn’t know the difference, but our brain does. It does. And so once we’ve identified it, then we can say to our, to ourselves and to our bodies and our nervous system hey, you’re safe.” You’re safe. “

Jackie Miller: You’re good. 

Kate Anthony: You’re good.” You’re good. 

Jackie Miller: It’s 

Kate Anthony: gonna be 

Jackie Miller: okay. Right?

Kate Anthony: And there’s re-parenting there. There’s kindness, as opposed to “What the fuck is wrong with me?” Which is- Yeah … where most of us go- 

Jackie Miller: Exactly … 

Kate Anthony: typically. “

Jackie Miller: I’m not over this yet?” What the fuck? The shaming and the blaming and the frustration “Oh my God, I cannot believe this is still triggering me.”

That’s right. And same thing. My ex, I just had to sit next to him at another volleyball game recently, and it bothered me way less, but there was a couple things that happened. Someone’s why is she wearing a volleyball mom sweatshirt? She’s not the mom. You don’t even wear [00:26:00] that.”

And st- stuff like that where you’re like, “Oh my God.” 

Kate Anthony: Oh, shit. 

Jackie Miller: But you will get to a point where that trigger time, that w- reaction time, you shorten it and shorten it and shorten it, and then I can go from, “Are you effing kidding me?” to, “Oh, this is actually funny.” And depending on the situation, but- You 

Kate Anthony: can roll your eyes and be like, “Oh, for God’s sake.”

Really. You can roll your eyes. You can roll your eyes. Really. And I wanna take this one step further from that. The one thing that I am so flipping passionate about, Kate, is w- what I call remembering your future. You’ve mentioned this- Okay … already. Our brains are rec- record keeping, artifacts.

Jackie Miller: All they do is keep track of everything that’s ever happened- That’s- … in our lives. Yes. And our reactions are based on that. Our decisions are based on, everything’s based on that. If you don’t stop and think about what’s, what you want your future to, to look like, your brain has no map- … to where it’s going.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Jackie Miller: And it’s just, the thing is when we are hijacked [00:27:00] and someone wants to keep us spiraling because that’s the way they keep us emotionally hooked and we get to continue to be a supply for them, we don’t take time out of our day to stop and think about, “What do I want my future to look like? What do I-” but if you don’t- … your brain has no map where to go. It’s kinda like the gratitude, starting to look for positive things in your life. It’s the same thing with your future. If you stop and you write it down in your journal. People will tell me “I have been journaling about all the things that have been happening.”

I’m like, “Awesome. Now I want to add something to that. Every other day, you’re gonna journal about what’s been happening. That’s great. Not telling you not to. And then the next day, you’re gonna journal about what your perfect day is, what you want your life to look like, and you’re gonna do that every other day, and then you’re gonna start seeing opportunities in your life that will open up that match those goals.”

And what happened was, and you said this, how this came to be was as I was working with clients, I started noticing the ones that would spend time doing that or started [00:28:00] may- they started maybe on the path to the different career, not that you have to do that, but you know what I’m saying? Sure.

They started looking at forward- Yeah … thinking things. Their cases started to seem to go better, Kate. They started to be a little bit more resilient. They started to be… It was this really fascinating phenomenon. 

And it would happen again and again, and I’m like, “There is something to this.”

My clients that are spending time focusing on their futures are having better outcomes- Yeah … than the ones that never think about it. So then I researched it. Guess what? I find all these research studies that everything from young kids in their adolescence that were maltreated to university students who were working really hard, and when they spent time writing down, focusing on their futures, what they wanted to be, grow up- Yes

whatever. They tracked these people into adulthood, and they had much better outcomes. They did, yes. And come to find out, psychologists call it future orientation. I was like, “A super simple statement, but it’s a thing.” And I was like, “Okay.” 

Kate Anthony: It 

Jackie Miller: is a thing. Yep. “I have to start having all of my clients make sure they spend time focusing on their future.”

Kate Anthony: And it’s not just It’s [00:29:00] not… So I think that one of the things that that we can… one, one of the, I think the weird outcomes of this kind of research was affirmations. I have a bullshit meter in my brain- Ah … that’s I’m not gonna stand in front of the mirror giving affirmations, being like, ‘My divorce is amicable.

My divorce- … is friendly.'” No. “Everything is a- we co-parent blissfully.” Fuck that. Fuck, no. Bullshit bullshit. You can’t 

Jackie Miller: lie. 

Kate Anthony: You can’t lie- 

Jackie Miller: No … 

Kate Anthony: in your affirmations. And it’s not just, writing out these what you want your future to look like isn’t just about “I want my divorce to go X, Y, and Z.”

It’s about- … it’s who… Because the other person, there is another person in the equation that you can’t- … control. 

Jackie Miller: You can’t control. 

Kate Anthony: And so it’s not about that. It’s about “What do I wanna create for myself? I don’t wanna be emotionally hooked,” right? I want, the future I envision for myself is emotional freedom.

Jackie Miller: Yes. Yes. 

Kate Anthony: The future I envision for myself [00:30:00] is me having a life that is so far beyond this thing that is creating chaos in my brain every day. It’s not the bullshit, right? No. It’s it’s actually- What do I wanna create for me? 

Jackie Miller: Yes. Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Jackie Miller: And so when I say, I’ll say describe your perfect day, and so it is, you wake up with no anxiety.

You make your coffee, and you have a moment to yourself in the morning. Your dog, is sitting on your lap. Then you call your kids and have a great conversation. It’s not- Yeah … this big, elaborate scheme. It is just the peace- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … 

Jackie Miller: that you’re going to have in your future, and taking a moment to image of that.

Now, and then I say, “It’s the visualization” So what pajamas are you wearing? What kind of coffee do you make in the morning? What kind of coffee maker do you use? What’s the fabric on the chair you’re sitting in? And you start really getting into it. Yeah. And then that’s where you start to feel it because the emotion might not come at first, ’cause it’s a n- you haven’t built the thread yet, [00:31:00] fiber that you talked about.

It’s a brand-new fiber the first time you do it, so it’s not very strong. The next time you do it, you add another one, and again. And before you know it, this vision of your future is so fricking real, it’s now a memory of your future. Ah. And you get to remember your future- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Jackie Miller: like that, because you can recall it at any time. 

Kate Anthony: Ah, so good. Yeah. So good. Yeah. There’s so much of this- Regulate. We really are. When we come out of a toxic marriage, over time our nervous system was hijacked, but it happened slowly over time, right? We didn’t notice it. We didn’t notice the backtracking, the backsliding, the the negativity- the whatever it was the loss of self. 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And it happens slowly over time. And so it will take that, that slow rebuilding. But it has to be [00:32:00] intentional, right? 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: This is something that happened to us, and now we get to take it back slowly, right? 30 sit-ups a day at a time. 

Jackie Miller: Yep.

Maybe 10, sorry. 30 might be a lot. Which, on the

Kate Anthony: third, I was like, “Oh, okay, Jackie.” ‘Cause after that first day- My daughter just made me do- … I don’t think the second day I’m gonna be back at the gym doing another 30, I’m just saying. 10. Sorry, 10. Five. Five’s good. Whatever, man. You do you. My daughter who’s a fitness instruct- instructor. It’s not my fault.

Jackie Miller: It’s not my fault. I work out, but… Oh, that’s so good. So I can totally do it. It’s so good. You can. You can. You can. You got this. I can do it, I can do it. So that’s like the intentionality is important, right? Yeah. Is a really important piece of this- It really is … in order to take back your life, in order to win, right?

Kate Anthony: In 

Jackie Miller: order to win. Yes. To 

Kate Anthony: win. Yes. Because, 

Jackie Miller: like you said, there’s this person out there that we can’t control, and that’s my whole point. Yes. We want your life to now [00:34:00] have nothing to… Even if you’re stuck in custody battles and financial battles I want you to win by realizing that all the control resides within you.

And there are these simple, but I get it not easy all the time, tools that you can do, and they matter, and they are working. And this is where your freedom lies. This is how you win. It’s when we stop playing their game, and I know you’re famous for saying, “Drop the rope.” It’s, finding those moments we can drop the rope- Yeah

because- That’s right … us being engaged is exactly their goal. And so looking for any opportunity to disengage, to, to i- just have some kind of separation, that is where your power is, and that is where you get to take moments for yourself, focus on you and your future. It has nothing to do with them. That’s the whole point.

Kate Anthony: I love that. Let me ask you one question about that. Sure. Because I can hear, and I know you can too, I can hear my clients or my listeners who are like, “Yeah, but- … he just won’t stop.” Yeah. “He’s [00:34:00] relentless. He…” It- what do you say to them? 

Jackie Miller: Awareness is the first step to any kind of change. Make the attempt to be aware that’s the game.

That’s the game. The relentless, the not stopping is the game. So come with me on this journey and just try to commit to being aware that the relentlessness is the game. And the other thing I’ll say is when I start to coach clients as well through trying to disengage, through really picking and choosing what respon- things need a response, through if, can you send a thumbs up instead of a full sentence?

Yes the least amount of engagement possible. Yeah. And then we have to brace for impact ’cause they know what you’re trying to do. They’ve got that instinct that you’re trying to disengage, and- Oh, … so- 

Kate Anthony: That’s right … 

Jackie Miller: we’re, they’re, you’re, th- they’re probably gonna escalate for a little bit as they throw their tantrum when you try to disengage.

That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. Of course. But 

Jackie Miller: I really think it’s important to understand that’s the game being played is keeping you engaged. And then you take these small steps, I understand it’s not easy, [00:36:00] to disengage. You do your research, work with your coach, talk with your friends. Do whatever it takes to just minimize the entanglement with them because in the relationship we were in this dance that they got us in, right?

Or the conditioning- … to respond, explain, e- explain yourself, right? The DARVO, the, reverse the victim and offender, the circle talking, the whatever. And we f- we constantly were finding ourselves explaining, and they wanna keep that going post-abor- or post-separation. But now they have to usually pick up different tools.

So since you’re not under the same roof, and that’s post-separation abuse, right? Yep. They’re gonna send these elaborate texts now. They’re gonna use their attorney. They’re gonna, send the emails, use the kids. So you just need to see that they’re trying to change the tools in the game so they can keep you engaged, and now we just have to be really mindful of every moment we can steal back from ourselves to not engage from them.

And I know it’s baby steps. It’s chipping- Yeah … away at this. You will get better and better at it, and then in the meantime, you’re gonna go [00:37:00] do your other things that are building those little fiber threads- Yes … so that you will feel less of the reaction- … when they send the emails and the texts.

Yes. You are stacking those little wins of those things you’re doing every day. You’re breathing. You’re going for the walk, and you’re building up your reserves and your resilience while you’re minimizing the disengagement with them. And so you’re working on two fronts. It is a chip away mentality.

I do get that, but you guys it does make a difference, and I just, I don’t want you to quit. You’re getting there. You’re getting somewhere, I promise. 

Kate Anthony: I love it, and it’s so true. It really is, and you’re gonna fuck it up, and you’re- Yeah … gonna suddenly engage again, and then you’re- Oh, yeah … gonna be like, “Goddammit, I engage.”

Just be gentle with yourself. 

Jackie Miller: Yeah. Be gentle. 

Kate Anthony: Be gentle. And I will 

Jackie Miller: tell you really quickly, I did a great job for four years with my ex, and I didn’t fall for the cra- And he didn’t stop trying. He didn’t stop trying. 

Kate Anthony: That’s very impressive, Jackie. 

Jackie Miller: One day… I kept trying to practice what I preach, and then one day he sends this text.

It was something to do with my daughter’s college that was absolutely [00:38:00] infuriating, and I lost it. I did everything I beg people not to do. Sure. I sent the five-page text. I told him every single thing he’s ever done and why he’s a dirtbag and all the things. And I send it, and he sends back five clown faces And I’m like, “He fucking got me.”

This is why it’s not worth it, you guys. Do- and I’m like, “I fell for it. I f- he finally got me. It took him four years, and he got me.” And he knew it. And- And he knew it. He knew it. He knew it. He’d been waiting. He’d been sitting on that clown emoji for He’d been sitting- Four years … he laid in bed at night

thinking, “What will be the response that just get…” And I was like, “The, see? This is, I know. I know. I learn again. Okay.” So you’re gonna screw up sometimes, like you said, Kate. It’s okay. Don’t shame yourself. Don’t get bad. We all do it.

The clown emoji. We all… They’re really good, but that’s how badly they want to engage you. 

Kate Anthony: I just wa- I mean- I just, at that [00:39:00] point, I think I would’ve just sent back a l- crying laughing emoji. Like- 

Jackie Miller: I did. Yeah. Did you? I did. That’s what I said. I sent the crying laughing emoji. High five. Yep.

You got me. You got me. You got me. All right. That’s exact- Okay, that’s brilliant. That’s exactly what I said. Oh, my God.

Kate Anthony: That’s so funny. That’s so funny. Oh, God. So- The clown emo- I will never forget that. I love that so much. 

Jackie Miller: Oh, isn’t 

Kate Anthony: it good? Oh, my God. He was like- So- … ha, gotcha.” 

Jackie Miller: Gotcha. Go- literally can you imagine? Gotcha. Jackie. I- it just, ugh. Ugh. And then I was so mad that I responded, but you can’t beat yourself up.

It happens. No, you can’t. But 

Kate Anthony: you guys. You can’t. 

Jackie Miller: Yes. And thank God I’d done a lot of the work, so my trigger, I, yeah, I did spiral for a while ’cause I was so mad he got me, but but- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … yeah. 

Jackie Miller: I had my 

Kate Anthony: tools ready But you still have a sense of humor about it, right? Like- 

Jackie Miller: My sense of humor about it.

Yeah, was able to pick up my, my, my weap- my, self-defense weapons. My, my journaling, my walking, my, my Mel Robbins, whoever, 

Kate Anthony: Whoever, whatever. 

Jackie Miller: Get back 

Kate Anthony: on the horse. Oh, my God. I love that story, Jackie. [00:40:00] Thank you so much. Tell everyone where they can find your book and you- All right … and all you do and all the things.

Jackie Miller: Oh, yes. I don’t know when this will come out, but the book will be available June 9th on Amazon- Perfect … paperback or Kindle. Working on the audio, but that’s where it is for now. And I am just so passionate about this because like I said, it’s something I’ve witnessed working with women. It’s something I feel like that we need to understand about our bodies and ourselves, and that we’re not broken- Yeah

and there’s nothing wrong with us. And you need to understand why the antibiotic works, it just, it helps you get through as you’re working through all of this and using all of those tools. And there’s more ideas in there for everyone, just so you can find- Perfect … what works for you. 

Kate Anthony: love it. I love it. 

Jackie Miller: So you can win. 

Kate Anthony: So you can win. 

Jackie Miller: We’re winning. Kate, we’re winning. 

Kate Anthony: We’re winning. We’re winners. We 

Jackie Miller: are winning. We are winners. 

Kate Anthony: I adore you, Jackie. Thank you so much for- Adore you too … coming back on. Yes. And what’s your, ooh, your website? Did we say what your website is? 

Jackie Miller: So [00:41:00] jackiemillercoaching.com and also jackiemillercoaching.com/book if you just- Great

wanna go straight to the book website as well. But yes that’s where you can find me, and also my podcast, Out of Crazy Town, i- is my handle on a lot of stuff. So if you put Out of Crazy Town on just about YouTube, Instagram, anywhere, you’ll find me. 

Kate Anthony: Great. Perfect. Thank you so much, Jackie. 

Jackie Miller: Okay.

Thank you for having me.