I’m back with Dr. Amelia Kelley, and we are diving into a topic that sits at the intersection of law and trauma, Kentucky’s 50/50 custody ruling and its very real consequences for survivors. Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, professor, TEDx speaker, author, neurodiversity and mental health advocate, and host of the Sensitivity Doctor podcast. Her work centers on relationship trauma and gaslighting recovery, and she brings over 20 years of clinical experience to everything she does. We have done some incredible episodes together, and this is no exception.

Amelia recently brought to my attention a study exploring the impact of Kentucky’s 50/50 shared custody ruling, which has been credited with dropping divorce rates by 25% or more. Articles are celebrating the decrease in divorce. And that is exactly what alarmed us.

Here’s why: Divorce rates are not dropping because people are happier in their marriages.

What this ruling is actually doing is forcing victims to stay in unsafe marriages because they are terrified of their children being alone with their abuser 50% of the time. 

Now other states are looking at Kentucky as a model of success worth replicating. So we are digging into what this actually means from a trauma-informed perspective. What happens in the nervous system when the legal system puts the burden of proof on the victim. Why a child witnessing abuse meets the clinical definition of PTSD, and why courts are not looking at it that way. And what it does to a survivor, psychologically and physiologically, when they are told they must hand their child to their abuser half of the time. 

This is a legal conversation, but we are not here as attorneys. We are here as trauma-informed professionals who see what this is doing to survivors every single day.

What you’ll hear about in this episode:

• Why dropping divorce rates are not always a good thing and what is actually keeping people from leaving (2:40)
• The burden of proof is on the victim, and what that does to them psychologically (10:46)
• What happens in the nervous system when you are told you must share your child 50% of the time with your abuser (12:00)
• Why your attorney is not your therapist or divorce coach and why an interdisciplinary team matters (15:08)
• Aimee Says AI, the tool built for survivors that helps document, organize, and categorize abuse evidence (18:16)
• Why a child witnessing abuse is, by definition, a traumatized child and why courts don’t see it that way (21:26)
• How to find a therapist who will testify, and why you need to ask upfront before you need them (23:42)

✨ If you’d like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here.

Learn more about Dr. Amelia Kelley:

Dr. Amelia Kelley is a trauma-informed therapist, professor, TED speaker, author, and neurodiversity and mental health advocate, as well as the host of The Sensitivity Doctor podcast. Her work centers on relationship trauma and gaslighting recovery, supporting those impacted by emotional and psychological harm in rebuilding self-trust, clarity, and nervous-system stability. With over 20 years of clinical experience, she takes an integrative, science-grounded approach informed by IFS, EMDR, somatic and polyvagal theory, and ADHD research. She is currently writing her forthcoming book on ADHD treatment in women with Norton Publishing.

Resources & Links:

Get Your Curated Podcast Playlist
Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate’s Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 

Dr. Amelia Kelley’s website
Dr. Kelley on Facebook
Dr. Kelley on Instagram
Dr. Kelley on LinkedIn

Episode 335: Making Your Trauma Responses Work For You with Dr. Amelia Kelley
Episode 353: Aimee Says Updates: How Women Are Documenting Abuse in Real Time with Anne Wintemute
Article: Kentucky’s Equal Custody Law Shows Why America Needs Shared Parenting Presumptions

Show Transcript:

Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back. I have with me today my friend and yours, Dr. Amelia Kelly. For those of you who don’t know, how could you not? Dr. Amelia Kelly is a trauma informed therapist. She’s a professor, Ted speaker, author, and neurodiversity and mental health advocate, as well as the host of the Sensitivity Doctor podcast. Her work centers on relationship trauma and gaslighting recovery.

We’ve done amazing episodes on that, supporting those impacted by emotional and psychological harm in rebuilding self-trust. Clarity and nervous system stability. She’s got over 20 years of clinical experience and she’s amazing. We could go on and on, but she’s written a million books [00:01:00] and been on the show a bunch of times.

Welcome back, Amelia. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Thanks for having me again. I was just saying to you be when we were jumping on that, it’s fun when you get to podcasts with a friend. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. And we’re gonna divert from what we normally talk about. We’ve talked about a ton of different things, but we’re gonna kind of dip into the legal realm a little bit. But from the trauma informed perspective, as always, you messaged me a while, a little while back about something that, a study that was done in Kentucky. You wanna tell me, you wanna tell the audience a little bit about what that is and what it is that we’re looking at today?

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Sure. Yeah. And it’s funny because when I sent it to you, I didn’t know when this study had occurred. So when I dug into it more after we connected, I was pretty surprised. And not for all the reasons we’ll talk about today. So essentially it was a study exploring what the impact of [00:02:00] the 50 50 rule.

Is and has been on those in Kentucky, which is stating that custody, right? 

Kate Anthony: Custody 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: role, right? Yes. Yeah. Stating that. Essentially, that’s where the judge will start. So this doesn’t mean it is indefinite, but what it is doing is it’s demanding that in order to request further custody, you have to supply.

Umpteenth amount of proof, which we all know and we will definitely talk about how that is not always feasible or possible or easy 

Kate Anthony: or 

safe, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: even reasonable to expect. But what alarmed me and what made me think, oh, this is so a okay Anthony topic. Is that the article was almost celebrating the idea that suddenly divorce rates are dropping by 25% or more.

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And as soon as I read that, the little hairs on the back of my neck went up and I felt a fear response. Yeah. Thinking. Oh [00:03:00] no. If the reason people aren’t divorcing is the fear of the child or their children being with their partner more, and that’s keeping the divorce from happening, we have a conversation to have.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. There’s a huge problem here, right? They’re like, oh look, when you get 50 50 people don’t get divorced as often. Thinking that’s because. Oh I won’t have to be away from my, the other one parent, the disenfranchised parent might feel that they’re not gonna be away from their child.

So I’m not quite sure what they thought or why they thought that was a good thing. I guess basically they just think that dropping divorce rates are good no matter what. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And I think that’s the dangerous part of some of the legal the laws and the legislation that we’ve seen Yeah. Is that it looks at things from a very black or white outcome lens.

Kate Anthony: Oh, divorce rates are dropping. This is wonderful. We should keep doing this. As opposed [00:04:00] to why are pe why are they dropping? They’re not dropping because people are happier in their marriages. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: That’s a very good point because honestly. I think there’s a notion when we look at the, it’s funny, I’m thinking like pro-life, pro-choice.

I’m almost thinking pro-marriage. Pro-choice. Yes. With this, yes. So if we look at the absolutely right from a pro-marriage lens, that doesn’t allow for pro-choice within your marriage. I think there’s this psychological notion that if you put enough potential roadblocks in the way, 

Kate Anthony: yes, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: it will make the person spend more time.

Kate Anthony: Thinking about it, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right? As if they hadn’t already thought about this for probably years 

Kate Anthony: as if it was just a wild hair that they got like 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: day, I, you know what I’m gonna do this weekend? It’s been snowing a lot. I think I’m just gonna file for divorce. 

Kate Anthony: They just got a bug up their ass and now we put, [00:05:00] we make it. Oh, but you’re gonna get 50 50. You’re not going, it’s not guaranteed that you’re gonna get more custody ’cause you’re the mom or whatever it is. Oh, in that case, let let me nevermind. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah, that’s right. 

Kate Anthony: Whoopsies. That’s right. I think you’re right. I think they think that it forces you into deeper thought about it.

When you and I both know that it, what it’s doing is forcing. Victims to stay in yes. Unsafe marriages. Because they are frightened of their children having to be 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right 

Kate Anthony: alone with their abuser 50% of the time. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I can literally think of a friend of mine who was gracious enough to let me feature her in my gaslighting recovery book anonymously, obviously.

And how she has literally said the reason that she has not followed through with fully divorcing, even though they’re separated for all [00:06:00] intents and purposes, is because of the fear of her children being with her alcoholic, emotionally abusive. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: It happens all the time. My.

Clients struggle with this all the time. My listeners struggle with this all the time. And now I think what you were saying is that I think before we hit record, is that a lot of other, so this is happening in Kentucky, okay, no surprise there. But a bunch of other states are looking at this as a measure of success.

That should be now be replicated. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Which is scary. 

Kate Anthony: Terrifying. Terrifying. And then with no fault divorce being, one of the things that is outlined in 2025 that should def project 2025. That should definitely be eliminated. We had a problem on our hands. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Now, can I ask you, because I was saying you’re the one that I was saying no pressure, right?

All about this stuff. In project 2025, the [00:07:00] no fault divorce, are they trying to make this federal or is this state by state, like what is involved in that? 

Kate Anthony: No fault divorce was adopted by all states, so it is not a federal, it’s not a federal thing. It would have to be state by state. There are some low hanging fruit states that would probably Kentucky for one. Some of those Southern more, Christian rights state certainly states that would. Probably be more than happy to do it, but it is a state legislation and i’m frankly shocked it hasn’t happened yet, but I think we’ve been a little bit distracted by all sorts of other stuff that they’re doing.

Frankly worse at this point. So yeah, I do think it’s a state thing and it would have to be rolled out state by state. And I think they were starting to test it. In Florida, how do you Texas like just float the idea and see how it might, and again, I think like you’re saying, they’re [00:08:00] presenting it in a way that like makes it, they’re trying to present it as something that’s good.

You should like, you should have to definitely prove fault and if you do prove fault, like you’re gonna win or whatever. Except the reality is you and I both know, is that proving fault is very difficult. Proving fault as a woman in an unjust, misogyny, often misogynist court system or let’s just say system.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Full stop. Full stop is even harder. And we often don’t one of the things that, you and I were talk, talking about with this whole 50 50 thing is, the burden of proof is on the victim. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: And what does this do to them psychologically?

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And it’s interesting because [00:09:00] looking at it from a trauma lens it makes me think about one of the reasons why trauma therapy is moving, and not to say cognitive therapy is not valid and doesn’t have a very specific place in trauma work. 

Kate Anthony: But 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: a lot of trauma-informed work, especially when you look at complex trauma.

Is getting closer and closer to what’s called a bottom up approach, where you’re looking at body’s reaction to trauma. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And one of the most important things I think of this body-based bottom up approach is that you are not asking for explicit memories anymore. You are allowing the person who. Trying to recover to only base their their work and their healing on their implicit experience, so they don’t have to prove anything even to the therapist.

Because when we ask someone to come up with the details to prove your story, to give me your explicit trauma timeline, [00:10:00] sometimes that’s easy enough to do. And most times it’s not because of the way that trauma gets stored in our nervous system. So if we take this idea and we adopt it to, okay, so now everyone, I almost said ladies, but now everyone, you are here, you know you want to divorce, you feel like this is a dangerous situation.

You feel like this is not the marriage for you. You’ve gone through the arduous task. Of coming to your watershed moment. And actually I’m gonna flip this and ask you a question real quick, Kate, what is the, I’m trying to remember, ’cause you put it in your book. What is the average time it takes someone to finally go from grievance to deciding that they’re ready to divorce?

Kate Anthony: I think it takes, it’s the average is about five years. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And yet we’re like, let’s put another roadblock. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. And for victims, it takes an average of I think seven or eight times. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: To leave. 

Kate Anthony: To leave and stay gone. Seven times of leaving [00:11:00] and then going back, leaving, coming back.

And so imagine what that’s doing. The psychological mind fuckery of that. So you have term, all of that, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right? Yeah, it is actually, yes. Look it up. 

Kate Anthony: It’s in the dsm 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: it’s funny actually, this is really funny. I was reading this cute book called, like the Dictionary book or something to my kids this morning.

Okay. And I looked at them and I go, you guys don’t even know what a dictionary is. Yes. You don’t even know what it’s like to have to like, run your finger along the page and be like. D-D-E-S-D-E like right. To find whatever word it is. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. They don’t know. They don’t know what a record is.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: They 

Kate Anthony: have to 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: mind you. ’cause we have a record. You have a record 

Kate Anthony: player. Okay, good. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: we’re cool. Yeah. But but so to take all of that this thought that as trauma therapists and trauma workers and healers we’re starting to recognize we have to stop asking for proof of trauma and we’re having to say, you don’t even need to.

Tell me your explicit memory, and I believe you, [00:12:00] I see you. But then we’re saying, but in the rest of your life, in the court system, for example, in your marriage, what I’m trying to provide for you in the safe space doesn’t apply out there. Out there. You need clear guidelines, which is why in all the gaslighting work I do say you are not crazy if you’re keeping the receipts, if you’re writing things, if you’re keeping the text, if you’re keeping a diary.

It’s not crazy. It’s smart. It’s a shame. It has to be that way. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. And that’s the difference also between coaching and therapy, right? Our job is to help them do the bottom up. And once they’re doing that work, my job is to help them. With the strategy that 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah.

Kate Anthony: Is documentation and like what matters for court, what doesn’t matter for court. All of that stuff, but they can’t get there to the strategic thinking if they’re still completely mired in the trauma. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: A hundred percent. [00:13:00] 

Hundred 

Kate Anthony: percent. So this is why, and again, an interdisciplinary team is so important.

We need you to have a therapist and a coach. And an attorney. Process everything with your therapist, a really good one who actually knows what they’re doing. Amelia? 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Oh, thanks. 

Kate Anthony: And then. Bring that to me. We work through that to create the strategy and the communication.

Yes. And what’s important to bring to your attorney, and if that sounds like you’re spending a lot of money, I promise it’s gonna save you a shit ton of money. ’cause your attorney isn’t gonna guide. That all, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: that’s such a good point because they will, some will I think, try to do some of what we can do, but not.

For the price, we can do it. And also not with the legitimacy like it’s 

Kate Anthony: Right. Or the training or the right. Any of it. Exactly. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: So if [00:14:00] someone, I’m curious in your thoughts then, if someone is listening to us talking about this and they’re in one of those states that has this rule or that it might hopefully not, but may end up having this rule, like what would you as a coach advise them to do?

I can’t help but ask you questions on your own podcast. 

Kate Anthony: I’m just be asking you the questions. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Sorry. 

Kate Anthony: But I would tell them, first of all to make sure they have a really good therapist like you, to help them process the trauma so that we can then get to the parts of their brain that need to, that we need for strategy.

And we would talk about what’s provable, what is evidence. We watch law and we all, we’ve all seen law and order. We all watch, SVU, we know what is considered evidence in court and. It needs to be tangible. We need the screenshots, we need the [00:15:00] downloads of the text messages. A lot of them, a lot of courts don’t accept actually screenshots of text messages.

There are apps that you can get that can download. Really they can download the history ’cause they can be taken out of context. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Oh, that makes sense. That’s a shame though. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done a screenshot of something because I have to remember it. I to have an extra step when you’re stressed out already.

That’s hard. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. I would say screenshot it in the moment. But then when we’re getting ready for court, we’re gonna want to have the evidence to back it up. This is the screenshot, here is the download of the, the context, or this is how Right. Came about. A lot of documentation is, can be really hard for people that have, that are cognitively impaired due to trauma.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: That makes sense. Amy says, is just the greatest tool. Amy says it is an AI platform specifically for domestic violence, victims of domestic abuse. And went to mute. The founder of it [00:16:00] was on the show for a second time very recently, and they have all these updates now, which. If you have a membership and you’re constantly uploading things, it’ll pull things out and sort and organize them for you.

That’s amazing. 

Kate Anthony: It’s mind blowing. It’s a game changer. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Amy says ai. I have to remember that. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, it’s A-I-M-E-E. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Oh, that makes sense. AI, Amy? Oh, gotcha. Okay. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Very smart. But it will store everything and create the documentation that you need and creates even like little pie charts of this is how much of financial abuse this is, how much emotional abuse.

These are the examples, and it will plot them on a. A, a timeline for you. It’s 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Okay. 

Kate Anthony: Unbelievable. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: You’re blowing my mind. I know, because even just as a therapist who I have a particular, actually a man that I am seeing as a client who is being emotionally abused by his wife and. [00:17:00] He is really struggling to, and he’s a veteran.

He has a lot of PTSD, like it’s just 

Kate Anthony: really hard. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Was abused as a baby. Like just really terrible stuff that is making it difficult for him to see what I’m seeing. And sometimes he’ll come in with these text messages and these long litanies that he’ll get from his wife. I bet you anything that would help.

Kate Anthony: Oh yeah. Because he just uploads them into, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: just in the process of realizing you’re in abuse, not even 

Kate Anthony: it helps. Yes. Because what she does first is pulls it out and says, these are examples and this is why. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Oh 

Kate Anthony: yes. It’s really, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I need to talk to this woman. 

Kate Anthony: Oh yeah, she’s amazing. I’ll hook you guys up.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Thank you. 

Kate Anthony: So that’s the kind of thing that I would help them with, is we’ve gotta sort the boxes. We’ve got all of this emotional trauma. We’ve got all of this financial abuse. Look, 99% of cases of domestic abuse. [00:18:00] No matter what kind, 99% also involves some form of financial abuse. So we have to sort through all of the boxes and categorize them what, which is why Amy is such a great tool for it.

So then we can get a good view of okay, what is gonna actually matter for court? What do judges care about? Because if they’re looking, for example, this 50 50 rule, right? The fact that he yelled at you doesn’t matter. True. The fact that he’s abusing you for custody doesn’t matter as far as 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: really, 

Kate Anthony: judges are concerned if most judges are not trained in this.

So they really feel like they’re these siloed epi incidents. He, even 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: if the child is witnessing the 

Kate Anthony: abuse, he abused you, but he didn’t Abu Yeah, because he, you didn’t, he wasn’t abusing the child. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: That makes me angry. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Welcome to my entire life. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: [00:19:00] Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: They consider it siloed because they’re not.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: That’s crazy because that’s the definition of PTSD is either being under threat yourself or witnessing someone under threat or even being aware of it, especially if it’s someone that you care for that I’m gonna drop. That is so fucked up. 

Kate Anthony: Uhhuh. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I’m dropping the 

Kate Anthony: F1 this time. Oh my. Got Amelia cursing.

This is great. But here’s the thing, Amelia, knowing this then means that we can begin to craft a case with evidence. Supporting such as the definition of PTSD. Your Honor, you might think that my children haven’t been affected because I’ve been the one who’ve been, who’s been abused. However, let right, we can look at strategically how we build the case.

If we know how they operate, we can, it informs us about how we need to operate. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: That’s like such a stress [00:20:00] reliever when I think about, and it pulls it back to this burden of proof in the therapy room, in the trauma room. Yes. Where we are learning and knowing that we have to stop asking survivors to give us their whole story, especially if they don’t want to.

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And I will just sit with you and be here with you just because of your implicit experience. And now it’s like then taking away the hu This is where I feel like AI is very helpful because I think it’s more hurtful to have another human tell you no, that’s not enough to validate any sort of abuse, but to have AI tell you Yeah, based on what I know with all of this, that is not going to be helpful.

Like I feel like that’s a way where this is really actually, yeah. Positive for us. 

Kate Anthony: Oh. Oh. This is one of the things that Anne went to mute the founder of, Amy says, when we first met, we were talking about how this is she’s I decided I wanted to put AI to use for good. Yeah. She 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: definitely did.

Kate Anthony: [00:21:00] She a hundred percent did. And she continues to, it continues to grow and become smarter and more useful as a tool. But I think it is important, right? Because. While these things are awful and rage inducing, once you know them, then you can strategize around them, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right? 

Kate Anthony: I can then say, actually, your Honor, here are the studies that disprove.

Here are the studies that prove what I’m saying, that my children actually have. PTSD. Here are the here, how is how they’re exhibiting it? Here’s how, here’s the diagnosis. Maybe now I know that I need to get my kids in therapy to get a formal diagnosis, right? These are the kinds of things that we can do in strategy when we’re, we know what we’re dealing with.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Now, can I ask you a question? Not an interviewee question, A clarifying question. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And I think I keep asking you, ’cause you’re teaching me things today that I hadn’t really [00:22:00] realized. When someone comes and they know this, does it have to be quote, an expert witness that is sharing this? Does it have to be your therapist or can you as the victim say these things for yourself?

Kate Anthony: I think it’s always better to have, either some documentation, whether it’s from a therapist writing in saying, I’ve diagnosed the children and this is what I think. Or here’s a research paper on this. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: So who would have to present that? 

Kate Anthony: Would it have to be I suppose you would, it would have to be your attorney or you like within 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: contact.

Okay, so it doesn’t have to be an expert witness, then it can be your attorney presenting on your behalf. 

Kate Anthony: Sure. I think so. I’m not an attorney and I don’t go fight these in court, so I don’t quote me on it. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: We can pretend today we can. Fine, 

Kate Anthony: yes. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And the reason I ask as a therapist, when I’m thinking about people in these 50 50 states who are.

In these scenarios, and maybe they’re listening terrified because they haven’t wanted to pull the trigger, but they think it’s [00:23:00] time. Sometimes there’s this confusion of when is a good time to pull your therapist in and when is not a good time to pull your therapist in? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Yes. And also, it may not be your therapist as the expert witness.

There are expert witnesses, like for example, Dr. Christine Ola, who will testify. She has a PhD in this shit and she will testify in court that this is a thing. Whether she’s worked with the family or not. You get, when you have an expert, expert testimony, it can, it is on the topic.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I love that. That’s interesting. The reason I’m asking is because we encounter this, sometimes I’ve encountered this where there is a little bit of a risk with pulling your own therapist in because sometimes it can open up your records. 

Kate Anthony: And a lot of therapists actually won’t.

So one of the things that I, there my. [00:24:00] Clients who are in super, like abusive, divorcing someone very abusive or malignant narcissist or whatever brand flavor they are. If they don’t have a therapist for their child already, I do ask them to find somebody who is open to testifying. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: It’s good to know that upfront because then they can be mindful of how they’re writing their notes and what they’re documenting.

Still honest, but really working on bias. 

Kate Anthony: And also work, I know that, in our family, we had a therapist, child therapist who was working with our. The child in this situation, they were working together for a while, and then when we needed her to go to court and testify about his, the impact that the other parent was having on him she wouldn’t do it.

She said, I don’t do that. Yeah, I do not, because she know didn’t wanna open it now, and it’s a good thing, those are her boundaries, but we had to move and [00:25:00] find another therapist. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: It’d be good to know that upfront. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. And then we found another therapist and we found the reason why she didn’t wanna do it, which made perfect sense, is that the psychopath in question then at one point reported the new therapist, to the board, do the whole smeared campaign. She was hundred percent cleared, but it cost her a lot of money in legal fees. She had to, and her insurance, I think, went up, things like that. Like she had to fight it hard because she was accused of all sorts of shit that everybody knew was bullshit, but she still had to fight it.

And so that takes up a lot of time and energy. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah. No, that’s, these are, I think what we’re talking about even just makes me think of why putting more things in the way. Doesn’t make sense when there’s so many things already in the way. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Of figuring out where children are going to [00:26:00] be, where they’re the safest.

And the interesting thing is none of this even takes into account the children’s opinion, which is already infuriating. 

Kate Anthony: And it’s also right, it’s not fair necessarily to sit and ask a 4-year-old or even a 12-year-old which parent do you wanna be with? Don’t make me talk about my other parent.

Then there’s like all of this like bias and fear, and they’re not necessarily the most reliable narrators of their experience at that point, right? Which is. Part of the issue with guardian’s, ad litem. Where, a lot of people are always asking me like, should I get a GAL?

And I’m like, I don’t know. ’cause it can go both ways. And your children have to feel okay disclosing their truth to a stranger. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Especially and considering that there’s probably so many people involved at that point already anyhow, so it’s like just one extra. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, exactly. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah.[00:27:00] 

Kate Anthony: Amelia from a therapeutic perspective, right? This whole like 50 50 mandate, right? And it’s it’s a presumption. We’re gonna presume 50 50 unless there is egregious evidence to the contrary. And now I understand on the one hand one of the things I have to say to women all the time is they’re like, I don’t want him to have 50 50 or, I’m thinking that I might let [00:28:00] him have 50 50 and I’m going, it’s not yours to give.

Exactly as much of a parent as you are with exactly the amount of legal rights that you have, unless we can prove otherwise. But he is just as much of their parent, even if he hasn’t acted like it. Even all of the things. I get it. I get it. From a trauma perspective. I think.

This notion of protect, like we wanna protect our children. As a mother, someone hurts my kid or goes after my kid’s in danger. I am on I’m not even on 11, right? I’m on like 6 billion. So what’s happening? From a therapeutic trauma perspective. In that moment when someone says you have to actually share your child equally with this person who’s been abusing [00:29:00] you.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I think that is what we’re seeing in the numbers and it’s freeze. I think, yeah, I think what we tend to do first right? Is we notice, so we startle about any sort of trauma that’s happening and it is a pretty natural progression where we first tried to move forward and act and do, and that’s that fight mode that you and I actually chatted about in that one episode.

We 

Kate Anthony: sure did. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: So you’ve got this natural tendency, normally when you feel a sense of empowerment to try to fight and do something. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: After so much time when our efforts go unnoticed, when they don’t do anything, there’s this, someone call it learned helplessness, but I’m speaking on a fully nervous system level.

Yeah. We’ll start to collapse and shut down. And I don’t think that just affects how you feel about the relationship that will naturally affect how [00:30:00] you feel about yourself, your self-worth, your identity, your ability to speak up, your ability to set boundaries. And so in my opinion, from 

Kate Anthony: perspective actually 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: too.

Kate Anthony: There’s the gaslight, right? Involved. Yeah. Which we know makes you more susceptible to gaslighting and more susceptible to future further abuse. In my opinion we’re saying as a society, we’re trying a lot of us are yelling about this. Let’s stop asking, why aren’t you leaving? And let’s start saying what is it about the, this, the context of the scenario that’s making it hard for you to leave.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And so as we reframe this, at the very same time, we have legislation happening that’s doing the opposite. That’s basically saying we are going to facilitate a sense of learned helplessness. We’re going to make you feel like your efforts. Essentially, yes. So I think it sends people into a freeze mode when what they actually need is to [00:31:00] be able to fight and move and do things right.

Kate Anthony: Which brings us back to having a therapist that helps them process so that they can work with a coach. To strategize. Because it is not safe for women to, ’cause I would love to see the numbers in a few more years. The number of domestic homicides. Increase, right? Like when we stay 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right, 

Kate Anthony: we’re not safer. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: What happens? 

Kate Anthony: Sometimes when we stay, we are safer than when we leave, because the most dangerous time is when we leave. And that doesn’t mean we’re safe. So I would 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: be and also, I was just thinking of something about another statistic I’ve read recently Yeah.

About divorces that goes in the opposite direction, where they’re saying that more women are facilitating divorce than ever before. Because of the fact that we, for the most part, are becoming much more independent. Yep. And financially secure. Bread winning, dare I say? And, all of these things.

What a weird term. [00:32:00] I wish there was a better term than breadwinner, but 

Kate Anthony: I get home the bacon, bacon bringer. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah, 

Kate Anthony: I’m the bacon 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: brier. Yeah. Although I’m pescatarian. So bring home the fake, bring home, the bacon bring. But it’s interesting because if we, were going to get a little, I don’t wanna get super political on this, but if we look 

Kate Anthony: Amelia.

We can because Okay. I do. And they’re used to it by now, so 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: go for 

Kate Anthony: it. Okay. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: So if we look at the different perspectives of, those who are leaning towards political decisions that increase independence, increase empowerment. They’re looking at statistics like. More divorce is being facilitated as a sign of things like financial health, independence choice.

And then you have the fear response of we need to figure out how to muzzle that. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. And this is, I’ve been talking about this a lot on the podcast and my Instagram that as we have. [00:33:00] Gained more choice and more autonomy, right? More fi we have more choice because we’re more financially independent because we are hi, by and large, more highly educated.

All of these things we, are homeowners at higher rates. All of the things, the system. We’re pushing against the system, and the system is saying no. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: This is a very effective way of saying no. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. It gets louder and louder.

Patriarchy says, oh, little ladies, oh, you don’t wanna do that. No. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Take another five years to think about it, 

Kate Anthony: right? Yeah. Little lady, are you sure that you know what you’re actually doing here? I don’t think so, patriarchy gets loud when we push against, and this is, look in a system when there is a voice that has been suppressed or oppressed, and it starts to get louder first of all, it does get louder.

That’s what it [00:34:00] does. And then when it’s not. When it pushes against the per, this is, our inner critics, right? They get louder and our whole system goes, I don’t wanna hear what you have to say. And so the, this is what happens in a system. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: What would you love to see happen with this?

I’m thinking we definitely, I feel like clarified for everyone what they should do, but what about the people who are making the decisions about. This in the first place, Uhhuh. 

Kate Anthony: Where do you wanna begin? You mean people like the legislators and people who are making yes. The first thing that has to happen is we have to vote them all out.

Fair. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And so far we are start, tides are starting to shift. The old white dudes in power are making a fucking mess. And most people are. And fortunately the mess they’re making is [00:35:00] big and loud and awful enough. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Painfully obvious. Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Awful enough that people are now going.

Oh, wait a minute. I didn’t mean, I didn’t think you meant that even though the rest of us were been screaming this since, 2015. No, they mean it. They’re saying it, they mean it. Now that those chickens are coming home to roost and even people who have been. Supporters of, the parts of 20, project 2025 that weren’t quite too disgusting or that were, voted one way because they thought it would be better for their pocket books, for their tax bracket or that their grocery prices were gonna come down or waking up to realize.

That what we have been warning and ringing the ringing the bells about since 2015 is actually coming home to roost, is actually coming to fruition [00:36:00] and they’re horrified. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: I was gonna say, it’s interesting too because when I think about all the things that you were just saying and it’s, all kind of leaning towards one party, obviously there’s also this family first kind of energy in the party that it’s terrifying, I feel like.

Yeah, I feel like if there was an awareness of celebrating non-traditional families, celebrating the fact that families don’t have to look a certain way. The these, this pressure, this muzzling wouldn’t be needed as much and we would have less traumatized children who would be less likely to grow up and become abusers themselves.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Absolutely. And there’s this put this whole like push of, it’s no wonder that there, I think there are three, who is it Ance and that, what’s her name? The terrible press secretary and then somebody else, it [00:37:00] might even be Steven Miller’s wife, are all pregnant at the same time, because here we are like, oh no, women should be right. We’re broodmares. Women should be home and pregnant. Not all these other things. You have Erica Kirk talking about where women belong while she’s taking over her husband’s, whatever that is. Company Feder, whatever that is. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: We’ll not define it 

Kate Anthony: I don’t even know exactly.

And like actually making, and very highly educated. Far more degrees than he ever had. The irony is Usha Vance is an attorney. What’s happening? But that this is what they want us to do and be, and so they’re modeling it even more and yeah, we are churning out more and more stifled.

Children into adult adulthood who are gonna be more abusive [00:38:00] because their entire, maybe they’re gay but they can’t come out whatever it is. I’m not saying people who, I’m not saying people who are gay and can’t come out, become abusers. That’s not what I’m saying. Whatever 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: people who feel repressed, 

Kate Anthony: whatever repression there is. Emotional repression. Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And if you think about the fact that even though the kids that we were saying it’s safer to not put the burden of choice on them. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: But when they see the parent who is championing for them.

Kate Anthony: Yep. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Being supported by the system and being listened to that teaches our children that they can trust Yes. Others to support them. That teaches them that the world is a safe place. Yes. And so even if. In the end we’re preventing the trauma of them having to speak up in a courtroom. We’re still sending a message directly to them.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. [00:39:00] Absolutely. And something else that I think is really important is that we can’t protect our children from everything. We can’t protect them from. Abuse from harm, all of those things, but we can prepare them for how to deal with that when it comes to their doorstep. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Agreed. 

Kate Anthony: We have to start having really difficult conversations with our kids about appropriate behavior and how people make us feel and without throwing the other parent under the bus, but also without gaslighting them and naming harm when it occurs, and then helping them.

Advocate for themselves when we can’t do it for them, when we can’t be there to do it. The notion that staying in a marriage. To protect our children is better for them. Is not supported by research, it’s not supported by the evidence. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: A hundred percent. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: It’s much, much as you’ve said before on your podcast, and I’ve heard you’ve spoken on this and I know this, I’ve seen this, a healthier [00:40:00] co-parenting situation where everyone is the be their best selves on their own is the best option, as opposed to staying in a, in an unhealthy dynamic where the kids are walking on eggshells and their nervous systems are being constantly rewoven with the trauma that they’re around. It’s just not the best option. And that, in my opinion, is what this whole 50 50 thing is going to create for our kids.

Kate Anthony: A hundred percent. And also we children only need one parent. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Give them a safe, secure environment. It would be great if there were two, but if there’s just one, it’s okay. But when you stay in a toxic environment, there’s only one environment and it’s toxic. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And the one parent who could have been the sole parent in a single family situation.

If you’re in that relationship still and you’re walking on eggshells and you’re trying to sustain because of the fear, you have to remember that you are not fully there. Like they’re [00:41:00] getting a percentage of you as you are constantly navigating the trauma of trying to sustain this relationship.

Kate Anthony: Somebody that I know who I would. I would hesitate to call a colleague. She has been a huge proponent of this 50 50 thing and actually wrote books about it and has been pushing it so strongly. Started out I thought from a feminist perspective, like we should work towards 50 50 because then it gives us the ability to restart our lives, right?

And I agree with that. In theory, I do. I do think that 50 50 when Safe for Children, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right? 

Kate Anthony: Is great and beneficial for women restarting their lives and Right. And being able to work and all of those things. But when it’s not safe, like it should not be the default, especially when the greatest threat to women’s lives.

[00:42:00] Is not cancer, not heart disease, but men, violence against women is the our number one cause of death. So why would we presuppose that this equal thing 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: right 

Kate Anthony: is healthy, is 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: correct. I almost wonder if there’s a way to marry the two where maybe to your colleague’s point 50 50 might be. A fair starting ground, but we need a more seamless, supportive system for the proof.

Aspect for if you have a concern, there’d be a really easy, streamlined way to ask for a different type Sure. Of custody. Yeah. And that, that therein I think is where the 50 50 piece could be helpful if it was in fact, not asking someone to remember every single thing explicitly in a perfect timeline with a bow [00:43:00] and seasoning on top and all the things.

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. And also 50 50 is might be something to work towards, right? I always say like with chil younger children, we’re gonna drop a 2-year-old who has only been home with his mother into a 50 50 co-parenting situation. Are you nuts? 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Oh yeah. 

Kate Anthony: That’s like in what world? Hard. We work towards it. We do a step up plan. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Good point. 

Kate Anthony: You’ve got a parent who maybe, has been the default working parent and hasn’t been around and doesn’t know the routines maybe. Ease into it and learn. But I love the idea that there would be a pathway for you to say, you could petition that.

Oh, actually there’s all these things. There’s all these reasons why not. But that would also require. The judges and the family court professionals to be trained in recognizing all of these things that they’re not trained to recognize. A hundred percent. Yeah. 

Without putting the burden on the victim [00:44:00] to present a perfect package of evidence, as you said, and the toll that takes emotionally and psychologically.

Which is why they need a good therapist like Amelia. And Amy. And Amy. Amy, is that the name of the app? Amy says, yep. Yep. Amy says that’s what it is. Yep. Yep. And yeah, Amy’s gonna put me outta business. Amy should sponsor this episode. Amelia, thank you for bringing this topic to us. I think we’ll definitely keep an eye on it and see what other states are gonna be doing because it really is scary to think that more people are staying in marriages.

That are not healthy. Look, even if they’re not abusive, they’re not happy and they’re not. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah, good point. Yeah. We’ve been talking about abuse this whole time. It doesn’t even have to be abuse. It could just be you just are not your best selves when you’re with each other. You’re not your best example of who you wanna be for your kids.

Kate Anthony: But my guess is that a [00:45:00] 50, a threat of 50 50 isn’t keeping those people 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: true 

Kate Anthony: in a marriage they don’t wanna be in. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: True 

Kate Anthony: it 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: true. 

Kate Anthony: It’s far more threatening. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: When there’s abuse. So I think we’re gonna keep our eyes on this and see how it unfolds. There’s so much happening so quickly in our country and it seems that they’ve taken a break from some of the threats against women and are focusing them solely on immigrants.

Dr. Amelia Kelley: You’re right. 

Kate Anthony: But pretty soon I think they will shift back. It’s just all bad. How about that? Yeah, that’s a nice way to end. It’s all bad, 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: but seeing you is good. Thanks, Amelia. 

Kate Anthony: Where can everybody find you and your show and all that you do? 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: My website, amelia kelly.com. Kelly with an ey. I’ve got everything there.

Links to trainings. I train a lot for Pesi. I actually have a gaslighting and relationship recovery training coming out [00:46:00] in February. For all you CEU seekers. Oh, good. But on there, I have everything from my podcast connection. So Sensitivity Doctor, I’ve had Kate on there a handful of times. You are always welcome to come back.

I, anytime I’m. And there you can find, things like my books and I offer a lot of different resources like Sensitive Workplace Checkup. If you wanna find out if you’re an HSP, a highly sensitive person, which I think you and I chat about. Oh yeah, a different episode. They can do an assessment.

There. Just lots of fun stuff. I wanted it to be like a place where you could hang out. Yeah. If that makes sense. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah. I have a lot of exciting things happening this year, and I’m trying, my motto this year, I have two New Year’s resolutions. I’ll end with this for fun instead of everything being bad.

They have nothing to do with organization or weight loss. Yeah. Number one, I guess one is kind of organization. Number one is to actually write who I’m talking to and the date on the top of the piece of paper when I’m jotting [00:47:00] my random thoughts down. Okay. 

Because forever I’ve just had random things and I don’t know what is.

And number two is to keep up, not be ahead, 

Kate Anthony: keep up, not be ahead. Okay. I like that. Yep. I like that. Striving for not mediocrity but just 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: better nervous system. Yeah, better nervous system. I think I was always trying to use these false deadlines to keep myself going, which works when I have.

Just enough on my plate, but I’ve got a lot. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: And I was like, it’s time to just keep up, get things done when they’re due. Yep. I don’t need to be two months ahead. I don’t need to be a month ahead. I don’t, it’s right. It’s okay. It’s okay. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I like it. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah, 

Kate Anthony: I like 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: it. Yeah. Jump over to our Ed A DH ADHD episode.

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Yeah. We’ve talked about this a few times in a few different formats. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I like it. I like it. Amelia, thank you so much as always for coming on. And everyone you can find Dr. Amelia Kelly at, is it Dr [00:48:00] amelia kelly.com or just Amelia? Just 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: amelia kelly.com. 

Kate Anthony: Amelia kelly.com.

It’s Kelly with an ey. All good stuff over there. Thanks, Amelia. 

Dr. Amelia Kelley: Thanks for having me. Bye everyone. 

Kate Anthony: Bye.

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