Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I am super excited to bring to you today my conversation with my new bestie, Elle Beatty. Elle and I met because we are both new to where we live. As I moved when I got married, and Elle moved to the same town around the same time. And so we posted… I posted in a Facebook group something about “I need friends.”

And she DM’d me the perfect DM, and here we are. So Elle is the author of upmarket women’s fiction that explores motherhood, family dynamics, and the courage it takes to challenge ideas of normal. Why we’re friends. She is the mother of four children, including a transgender child, and her debut novel is Consequences of Normal, which I read on my honeymoon, and I loved it.

[00:01:00] Elle, thank you so much for being here. 

Elle Baade: Thank you so much for having me. I’m just so pleased to be here. I love it. 

Kate Anthony: Elle and I are also starting a sewing circle in our neighborhood.

We’re both trying to find community, ’cause it’s hard when you’re in middle age and and all the things, 

Elle Baade: if you’re not the bar people, where do you go, right? You have to get creative. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. So let’s talk about your book, Consequences of Normal. What inspired you to write this book? I obviously know what inspired.

Tell us about the book, right? Because let’s do a little synopsis of what the book is actually about. 

Elle Baade: Sure. The, the book is about a mother named Jane who is trying to find her voice for her child who seems to be transgender, and Jane doesn’t really know anything about that. She just knows that her child is very unhappy.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: And she’s getting a lot of pushback from- … everywhere in her life- … and really has [00:02:00] to fight against her own demons of feeling that she’s worthwhile enough to even fight for this child. And I think almost all of us as women can relate to that at some point in our life about something somewhere, if not lots of places.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: Exactly. It’s ultimately it’s fictional. It’s definitely not my story- … but I am the mother of a transgender child, so it is really compilation. It’s a soup of all the things I learned, all the parents I’ve met along the way that sort of went into- 

Kate Anthony: All the experiences that- 

Elle Baade: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: that they have had.

Gosh, there was so mu- I found so much fascinating about this book. One of the things, it’s really interesting that you say that the child is having, that Jane is having to find her voice through her child who is having trouble. I experienced it a little bit differently, which is that- [00:03:00] The child is very clear on exactly who they are – 

Elle Baade: Yes

Kate Anthony: right? Like exuberantly 100% clear with no sort of shame about it because w- they haven’t yet experienced the world as shameful about, right? Yes. Like in the, certainly in the beginning. And that almost, I almost found that Jane found her voice and her strength through and her expression. Because Jane is such a, she had lost herself in marriage, as so many of us do- 

Elle Baade: Yes

Kate Anthony: and had absorbed her husband’s i- identity and who she kinda needed to be in order to be married to him. But through her child’s expression, sh- I feel that she finds her, she finds her voice through that expression of her child, 

Elle Baade: right? Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: I love that for her. 

Elle Baade: I do, too.

And how often isn’t that the case [00:04:00] as mothers, where we feel that our children are the ones teaching us? 100%. Yes. Always, right? Always. And how often are we… Yes, we are learning through them who we are and also who we have to be, right? Because Jane is somebody who never stood up to her husband, m- more because she didn’t really have to or sh- there was nothing that she felt she had to fight for.

Kate Anthony: Partly because she doesn’t have much of a self anyway, so it was hard to, for her to even identify what her needs might have been. But she just never had to do that. But then it comes down to her child, and we will fucking do for our children what we cannot seem to be able to do for ourselves, like, in a nanosecond.

Elle Baade: Oh, yeah. Don’t poke the mama bear, right? Like- 

Kate Anthony: Do not poke the mama bear. We will fuck you up. 

Elle Baade: Oh, yeah. 100%. Take you down, all the things. That’s, [00:05:00] often when we feel like we are not strong, we find our strength in our children because they need us to be. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. And this book is really w-…

it’s, obviously this is a critical time for this story to be told. And- Oh, my 

Elle Baade: gosh, yes … 

Kate Anthony: it’s climbing the charts for good reason 

Elle Baade: Yay. 

Kate Anthony: Yes 

Elle Baade: Very exciting. 

Kate Anthony: Very exciting. And you’ve had interest from, some pretty sort of heavy hitters in the trans rights community. Yes. And hopefully we’ll get more and more in that.

How’s that feeling for you? There’s a visibility to this for you as a woman, as a mother, that’s a little different. 

Elle Baade: Yes. It is a total mixed bag because it’s so exciting and wonderful to see these numbers and to see this attention and to see people post and have people I don’t know say oh my gosh, I heard about this,” and watching the numbers go up.

But then it’s also scary because you’re like, “Holy cow, everyone is going to see this.” And as we all know, the [00:06:00] world is not always a friendly place right now, and this is a very divisive subject that tends to bring out, the cretins, right- Yep … of society- 

Kate Anthony: Yep … 

Elle Baade: who don’t wanna learn.

I don’t think they would even want to read my book, but I’m sure that they’ll have an opinion on it. Oh, they’ll have tons of opinions on it. And- Absolutely … it probably won’t be very nice. No. So it’s been one of those things oh, I can’t wait to get it out into the world, and I know it’s gonna help people.

I know it’s gonna help parents who n- need to hear the things that I- It has … needed to hear years ago that really were not out there the way they are now. But I also know it’s gonna bring a bunch of people who are like, you should just be h- hung in the streets.” Yeah. And that’s never easy to hear, 

Kate Anthony: no. 

Elle Baade: Sorta a bunch of deep breaths and the superhero pose and say, “Okay this is what we do to change the world.” 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. And this is what we do to protect our children. 

Elle Baade: Yes. Absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: Obviously, one, the central theme of the book is about nor- what is normal.

What is, what the fuck is normal? 

Elle Baade: [00:07:00] Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And it’s talked about a lot in the book. Another one of the th- I wanna get, I wanna talk about that in a second, but one of the other themes in the book and the reason we’re having this conversation is what this does to their marriage. Matt is a headmaster at a private school.

In the beginning of the book, he works for a very… they’re in Texas we know what that’s about. Yeah. And then they move back to his hometown in Wisconsin, and it’s a very different town, but still same… Lots of similar themes, right? But ultimately, as, as things unfold and as Jane starts to really identify that what their child is saying, even though the child doesn’t have words for it, is that they are transgender, this does something to their marriage.

Elle Baade: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And it’s not pretty. 

Elle Baade: No. And so many people that I know- … it’s common. [00:08:00] I would think that there are very few marriages out there that could just take this on and say, “Hey, no problem. Let’s grab- “We got this” … a therapist. We got this. Let’s get you some clothes. Like, whatever you need, buddy.” I would say there’s probably always going to be one parent who’s in a different place than the other.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: And some of them are polar opposites and think who cares,” right? Because it won’t be an issue until something like this happens, and then suddenly if you’re on different sides of some issues, it’s a really big deal. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Elle Baade: And for Jane and Matt, that was, the defining moment of their marriage.

All of a sudden they couldn’t even function anymore as a married couple because they were- … on opposite sides of this divide. 

Kate Anthony: And to be clear the side that Matt is on is… he constantly says “Oh, this is a phase. This is a phase.” 

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: Yep. And then Jane has this moment of looking back on photos, right?

And is it photos- Yes … that she’s looking back? Yeah. Yes, 

Elle Baade: she’s 

Kate Anthony: hanging up photos. She finds… Oh, she’s hanging up photos, and she [00:09:00] realizes that she suddenly realizes this phase has been going on for- four years … almost the entirety of their child’s life, and the phase being that the child who was assigned male at birth is wearing fairy cl- clothes and princess costumes and tutus and, and- 

Elle Baade: Yep

Kate Anthony: pink Crocs and really, owning and loving that. 

Elle Baade: Oh, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I think in the beginning b- both parents are like, “Cool. Whatever. That’s fine.” There isn’t that shame in the family of l- of you need to be wearing certain things- Correct … until it’s named 

Elle Baade: Yes. And until they go back to Matt’s hometown where he suddenly cares what people think.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: Suddenly- Yeah … it matters. The, the kids at our school people are talking. Suddenly it matters, right? We all get triggered by something, that’s what triggers him. 

Kate Anthony: And he does not handle it well. 

Elle Baade: No. No … 

Kate Anthony: one of the things that struck me so much that you identify in the book, and I don’t [00:10:00] know if you do it, I think you do it intentionally, ’cause I read the book and I know you. But almost all of us as mothers, certainly those listening to this podcast, have experienced the fact that we read the fucking parenting books. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: We do the research. We listen to the podcasts. We learn how to become parents.

We don’t w- there’s a lot of innate stuff in motherhood But also, there’s a lot of shit to learn when you become- Yes … other, and we do that work. 

Elle Baade: Oh my gosh, yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And here is Jane. She is looking things up. She’s reading things online. She is doing the the checkbox, whatever quizzes.

Is your child transgender or whatever. And she is realizing, and then she’s calling the places, and she’s trying to get into the, the specialists and all of the things while Matt’s just “No, it’s a phase.” And she’s like- Yeah … “No, but read this.” And he’s like, “It’s just a phase. I don’t need to read that.”

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: And that is such a- That’s the same. That’s it. That [00:11:00] is such an experience that we have as moms. The, the, it’s so relatable. 

Elle Baade: Very much. Yeah. Very much. Yes. I would say that really, what you said right now, came very much from my experience with my husband, who super supportive, LGBTQI ally, no issues at all, but was just like, “It’s a phase.”

Right? Really? He did, huh? And I said, I don’t think so.” Like- … “My mom ran a daycare. I have- Yeah … four kids. I have four grandkids. I have been around a lot of friends and a lot of kids, and I’ve never had one that I had to correct about their gender. Not ever.” Yeah. Hundreds of kids, right?

Kate Anthony: Yep. 

Elle Baade: And I just knew. 

Kate Anthony: And to be clear, your husband the, the child this is not, this was his first kind of go ’round. You’ve had all these other experiences and all these other kids- Yes … and grandkids and all of that, and this was his first time at the rodeo. 

Elle Baade: Yes. Right?

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: Yes. And [00:12:00] he was just like, “Eh, it’s fine. Let’s not worry.” But moms worry. We worry, especially when we’re like, “Oh there’s something going on.” And this was a while ago, so there was not as much information out there to find. It certainly wasn’t as big of a topic or as divisive of a topic as it is now.

So I had to really do my own research and do a lot of digging and find books and all of these things. Once I really realized, I was like, “Okay, we’re finding a therapist- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Elle Baade: and all the things,” and he jumped on board, right? He did not- 

Kate Anthony: That’s, that is the thing about him … 

Elle Baade: he, yes, he did not do any of the Matt things, other than just the initial “Eh,” what the heck?

Are you sure? I think it’s fine. I think it’s just Frozen,” right? “She just loves the movie-” She loves Frozen. Like- … sure, everyone does, but it’s more than that. But that said, there was a group that we had of Parents of young trans kids. And of that group, numerous [00:13:00] people that I knew had polar opposite opinions about their children and ended up divorcing.

So I have seen far too many parents like Matt out there that, now people are trying to co-parent with. And it’s just absolutely frightening to me because it’s a scary enough world for trans kids as it is, even if they are completely supported. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. And there’s some shocking statistics that you cite in the book about this.

Oh, yes. And you kinda repeat it, and I appreciate that you repeat it because it’s it is startling. And I, of course, you repeat it, and I took it in and I absorbed it, and then it’s gone ’cause menopause. So can you repeat the statistics for t- the trans kids and the- 

Elle Baade: Sure.

Pretty standard is the knowledge that 42% of trans chil- children will harm themselves if they are not supported in their school or home. Some studies cite up to [00:14:00] 85% anywhere from cutting and harming themselves to un-aliving themselves. Just astronomically high odds. Astronomically high odds of homelessness, of being kicked out of their homes.

Those numbers, obviously when you combine them with any kind of marginalized population, get worse. Black trans women have the lowest life expectancy in the world. I believe their life expectancy is 36 years the last time I saw it. Wow. Yes. And that’s just, poverty and homelessness and abuse and violence.

Supporting trans kids is not something cute. It’s life or death. That’s right. 

Kate Anthony: Literally. That, it’s literally life or death. Literally. And you as a parent say that you unconditionally love your children, and yet there comes this condition all of a sudden. All of a sudden, we talk all about, we give so much lip service to unconditional love when it comes to parenting.

Elle Baade: For real. A- but then I know that people don’t get it because they’ll say to me, “Oh, [00:15:00] you’re such an amazing parent.” And I’m like, “No, I’m just a parent.” I’m just a parent. I’m just- 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Elle Baade: And- That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Elle Baade: Yeah … a- and like I say in the book, I don’t want another kid. I want this one.

Ex- exactly as she is. I don’t want any changes at all. She is, she’s amazing, and I love her so much. There you d- you do not want another kid. Oh my God, no. And we do… It is so startling to me that any, any parent, and you, and by the way yes, and you are extraordinary. Totally. I wish you were not.

Kate Anthony: It, I wish it were not extraordinary to be who you are as a mom. Yes. 

Elle Baade: Agreed. Thank 

Kate Anthony: you. And you are 

Elle Baade: Thank you. 

Kate Anthony: You know- Thank you for that … you have made major shifts. You moved. You left a state. Yes. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: You uprooted your entire life for the safety- Yep … of your child. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Which is extraordinary, ’cause a lot of people wouldn’t do that.

But it wasn’t [00:16:00] even a, it wasn’t even an op- it wasn’t even a choice for you, right? No. It, yeah. 

Elle Baade: No. It really wasn’t. It really was very clear that it was coming to a head, and we were in a purple state at beth- best that was really turning red, and also a really small conservative town with lots of trucks with Trump flags, and them…

s- every time we’d put out a Black Lives Matter or Pride, things on our lawn, they’d get stolen, and this was just very common in town. You could not have anything like that. They would come and destroy them, leave them littered across your yard. So it definitely was getting worse, not better.

And we knew that this was just not going to be a long-term place we could stay, so we left our community that we had been for over 20 years, and our families, and friends, and- And your gorgeous house … and old home. Oh, my gosh. My third parent and my fifth child, I loved that house, and, brought my youngest home to that house.[00:17:00] 

It was a lot, but it’s also we were not going to wait until something catastrophic happened, right? No. And you talk about violence and that’s very real. That’s something that could just happen, and no one’s probably going to warn you. It’s just going to happen. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. You don’t get warnings.

That’s right. That’s right. 

Elle Baade: Our best bet was to go to the safest state that we could get to, and we like nice weather, so it’s better here. 

Kate Anthony: Lucky me. 

Elle Baade: Yes, and I got to meet you, so it’s all good. 

Kate Anthony: We’re literally each other’s only friend right now. I know.

So I do wanna get back to this idea of normal. The book really challenges what is normal. How do the expectations from society, family, all of the things sh- shape [00:18:00] choices that women make, right? Because of what we think is supposed to be normal. 

Elle Baade: Yes. Like, 

Kate Anthony: how… And how do you address that in the book?

How is that an important theme for you? 

Elle Baade: In my opinion, normal is an illusion. It’s a magic trick. It’s n- it’s not real. It, it- No … it does not exist. So it’s this thing that people chase for no reason. ‘Cause it’s not real. It’s just a construct. 

Kate Anthony: No, it’s so not real. 

Elle Baade: And if we would think about the other side of that coin, then the thing that does matter is authenticity.

Kate Anthony: Is showing up as your real self. And we all know this because when we show up as our real selves and we say, fuck it this is who I am,” people are like, “Oh my God, I love you.” And you’re like, “Really? ‘Cause I just said something really off the wall. That was pretty bad.” And that’s how you find your people.

That’s 

Elle Baade: right. Is you showing your stuff, right? 

Kate Anthony: Yep. 

Elle Baade: So this idea that we [00:19:00] sand off our edges and- … be careful with ourselves and, cut our speaking in a way that doesn’t actually say what we wanna say because we’re afraid of what other people wouldn’t like- … it doesn’t get us anywhere.

And it doesn’t matter if that’s parenting, it doesn’t matter if that’s our job or our friends or any kind of relationship. I feel like the, the concept of normal is harmful to all of us. 

Kate Anthony: It- and it is, as you said it’s such bullshit. 

Elle Baade: It is. It’s not even real. 

Kate Anthony: It’s not real. I remember the first time I really got hit with the, the idea of normal we called them normies, in Al-Anon, where you would talk about normies as people who are not, whose lives are not affected by alcoholism.

Elle Baade: Oh, 

Kate Anthony: okay. And as long as I have been alive I really don’t know that I’ve ever met anybody whose life and family has not been impacted by alcoholism- Oh … in some way, shape, or form, right? 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: [00:20:00] This idea that there are these people, these normies out there, and I think what we really mean, I think we’re talking about there are people who are not codependent maybe.

Oh, sure. But also, like f- who are they? 

Elle Baade: Yeah, exactly. 

Kate Anthony: This… And I, and then I start to, and then as I’ve gotten older and had a kid with very severe ADHD, and these learning differences and that there are people who are neurotypical and ver- versus neurodiverse, and it’s like- Who the fuck is neurotypical?

Really … ultimately, the nor more people are neurodiverse than not- 

Elle Baade: Oh, 

Kate Anthony: yes … at this 

Elle Baade: point. 

Kate Anthony: I think we’re starting to really see that now that- Yes … we’re all being diagnosed in our, middle age and all of this, right? 

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: This idea that there is this box that we, that some people fit into, most people fit into, and then the rest of us are, like, flailing outside, it’s it’s all bullshit.

Elle Baade: Yeah. It’s like, no, we’re all flailing outside. We’re all [00:21:00] just trying to figure it out. We’re- … we’re probably all a mess in one part or another. It’s just a matter of how much people can see that or how socially acceptable our mess is. 

Kate Anthony: Not, and this is not to say that by the way, being transgender is a mess or being- No, not at all

neurodiverse is a mess. But there is no box. 

Elle Baade: No. There is no box. Yes. No, exactly. We’ve all got stuff going on, right? Yes. Every one of us in different ways. 

Kate Anthony: And gender is apparently a spectrum. Did you grow up with that knowledge- No … in any way, shape, or form, right? 

Elle Baade: No.

Kate Anthony: What? No. No. No. 

Elle Baade: But now that I look back, I see that there were kids even in my elementary school- 

Kate Anthony: What? 

Elle Baade: Okay, are you with me, right? Your face. Oh. ‘Cause you’re like- Oh, 100% … yeah, that you’re like, “Oh, I wonder if that kid was trans,” and just didn’t have the language or wasn’t allowed, right? Because there would be girls who, they weren’t just tomboys, man.

It was a whole thing. And the funny thing is, it wasn’t a big deal. It [00:22:00] was like, “Oh, that’s just how she is,” and okay. Yeah. So I, trans people have always been here. 

Kate Anthony: They’ve always existed. 

Elle Baade: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Always. 

Elle Baade: Always. But now it’s just turned into such a huge deal. 

Kate Anthony: And now it’s now it’s time for us to make this a safe world for them to exist and to wipe away this idea of normal.

And one of the things that I love about your kid is there’s no pretense. There’s no it’s just this is who they are, no big deal. She’s a- Yep … she’s a girl, she’s sh- and she’s a tomboy. Yep. And one of my favorite things about her and about your book is just getting to witness and observe children being 100% authentically themselves, and have it be fostered and nurtured and l- in a way that would never have happened when we were growing up.

Never in a bazillion years. Yes. I don’t know about you, but I was not transgender. I am cisgender. But even growing up as a cisgender girl- … [00:23:00] I was not fostered to be myself. 

Oh, hell no. Hell no. 

Elle Baade: Like- Exactly … at all. It was so much- Exactly … the here’s your box, right? Fit in the box, and we did, and then we just kept changing boxes.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. And- That’s right … 

Elle Baade: I think once we got older, it sure sounds like you’ve done the same work that I have where you get older and you do all this work and you say first of all, fuck the box, and I’m sure as heck not gonna put my kids in there.” 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s 

Elle Baade: right. Absolutely not are you gonna grow up with that.

Kate Anthony: That box almost killed me. Fuck you. 

Elle Baade: Yes. Yeah. Yes, 

Kate Anthony: exactly. Exactly. 

Elle Baade: Exactly. 

Kate Anthony: And look, different story, same premise, right? My son with very severe ADHD who I had to go to the mat for over and over again against his dad who was like, “It’s not that bad. It’s like a, it’s like a mild di- diagnosis.”

Meanwhile 

Elle Baade: Oof. 

Kate Anthony: When the, school special ed, directors or whatever would s- would read his evaluations, they would [00:24:00] be like oh. Oh, okay. Okay, this is really serious. And I’m like, “Yeah, this is not a minor…” What are you even talking about, right? Yeah. And similar to Jane, similar to you, had to go to the mat, change schools, m- at the school every day, like absolutely fighting for my child to not be stigmatized- Yes

into self-harm, depression- … suicide, and there were mo- there were times when it was real touch and go with him, especially during the pandemic, ’cause he was, like, 16 during the pandemic. Really critical time, and he couldn’t do school on Zoom. His brain couldn’t do it. But this is what I think culturally, as we expand and start to notice that, oh, there is no normal’s bullshit.

Yeah. There is no box. And I was raising my child in southern California, and we were in Los Angeles, and he was at progressive schools all the time, right? So very privileged in that way, and I was still fighting against a system- 

Elle Baade: Yeah … 

Kate Anthony: to get him [00:25:00] noticed. But this, this is what motherhood does, this is what w- I think this is what motherhood can do, can give, right? I’m curious if you’ve come up, in all of your research and experience in groups and meetings, do you see mostly moms being the support? 

Elle Baade: Yes. Yes. There are some influencers and some, some great dads out there, but I would say when it comes to anything with mothering, it’s generally the mother who runs the show.

It’s generally the mother who goes to the doctor and the dentist and- … makes the phone calls and picks up and drops off. There aren’t a whole lot of, there’s not a lot of equal playing field with that from, what I see. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Elle Baade: I certainly didn’t have that earlier in my earlier relationships, but I will say that now I have a husband who cooks and cleans and picks up and drops off and does as much as I do, which is just- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah

Elle Baade: M- miraculous. I did not know [00:26:00] such a creature existed. Highly recommend. 

Kate Anthony: He’s so cute. 

Elle Baade: A particular model of … He’s adorable. And you do 

Kate Anthony: a, and you do a lot of it together, because you guys don’t like- Oh, my 

Elle Baade: gosh … 

Kate Anthony: you guys don’t like to be apart, which is so cute. 

Elle Baade: No, we hate being apart. N- all these years, we hate being apart.

We- Yeah … we hate it so much. If he has to- He’s so- … go down for a couple days for work, we’re just miserable, both of us. It’s just, it’s a little pitiful. It’s wonderful. 

Kate Anthony: It’s really funny. The first time he said he was like, he has this new job that’s keeping him in crazy hours, and he was like, I just don’t wanna be apart from Elle.

I don’t wanna have to go to India for a few days. That would suck. I would just I don’t wanna be away from her.” And I was like I’m sorry, wait. How long have you guys been married? 

Elle Baade: Yeah, no, we’ve been together- It’s like- … over 14 years, and we still hate being apart.

Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Relationship goals. So you guys do all these things together. You do pick-up and drop-off together often, right? Yep. And like- Yep … yeah, you totally do. And I, I love that for you guys. As the mother of a transgender child, there are [00:27:00] th- there are a lot of conversations that are happening in this world right now.

There are a lot of conversations that we are having as a society, which is amazing. Are there any conversations that you’re hoping your book will also bring out and spark? Any conversations you think we’re not having? 

Elle Baade: The really big main one that I want, and this is of course for trans kids, but I think it’s really for all of us, is that there are consequences to this idea of normal.

That we don’t fit in some societal image, and that means we’re bad, that someone’s doing it wrong, that someone’s screwed up, that, it’s gonna have this terrible snowball effect on society. And that’s where we get into trouble because I think we’re all a lot more alike than we are different.

And yet we’re living in a really polarized time where people very much concentrate on the things that are different. [00:28:00] And- Yeah … most of the time I would say 90-plus percent of the time I don’t think about my child being transgender. I- No. She’s just- I it doesn’t occur to me until- Yeah … some jackwagon says some ignorant asshole thing online, and I read it, and I’m like, “Why are you such a dick?”

You don’t know- you probably don’t know a trans person at all, and you probably do, and you don’t know they’re trans. That’s the thing And you’re just gonna be a dick, but otherwise- Yeah … unless there’s a problem, we don’t think about it. Because it’s just our life, and we just live our lives.

And quite frankly, how often does anything come into play about being transgender? It doesn’t. I think about my closest friends that, some of which I’ve had since high school, childhood. I don’t know what’s in their pants. And you know what? I 

Kate Anthony: don’t 

Elle Baade: give a shit. I don’t care. It does not affect our relationship, and it never has.

That’s right. Some of them I’ve known, 35, 40 years. I don’t know, they could have, kitchen silverware down there for all the hell I know, and it doesn’t… Like, why would it matter to me, [00:29:00] right? It obviously- … is not a part of our relationship. 

Kate Anthony: So- 

Elle Baade: yeah … I guess I just wish people would read this book and see that the only reason being transgender is a big deal is because other people make it a big deal.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Elle Baade: Otherwise- That’s right. Yeah … just let people wear what they want, and do what they want, and go to bed as whoever they are, and it really doesn’t affect you. 

Kate Anthony: It’s as much of a thing in their lives as other people make it. Otherwise, it’s just, they’re just living their lives like the rest of us.

They’re just doing the best they can as a human being like everybody else. 

Elle Baade: Yes. Absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: So why do we have to make it difficult for them? Or, or make it the thing that it doesn’t need to be. 

Elle Baade: Yes. And there’s this very common misconception that I hear and see a lot online and other places where people say You know, why do we have to make it, why do we have to make things with kids sexual?

No. That’s not- And transgender has nothing to do with sexuality. No. This [00:30:00] misconception is part of the dangerous part that makes people be so anti-trans kids, because they think that this is about sexuality, where sexuality is about who you go to bed with, right? Yes. Yes. Who I am going to have intimate relationships with.

That is sexuality. Gender is who you go to bed as. So I crawl into bed as a woman. I’ve always been a woman. Before that I was a girl. I have never questioned that. I’m cisgender. That’s right. My child at a very young age was like, “Hey, you got it wrong, man. I’m a girl. I don’t care about my body. I am right,” and that’s who she goes to bed as.

That has nothing to do with who she will eventually marry or have relationships with. That’s- That’s sexuality. And the reason that the distinction is so important is because people think we are putting some sort of sexuality on young children when they come out at nine and say, “Hey, I’m trans,” and they say, “Oh, they should- they’re too young to be thinking about that.”

It’s, they’re not [00:31:00] thinking about sex, they’re thinking about who they are. Exactly. Not the same thing. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. And you’re, putting me in the wrong box. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And all they’re saying is, “That’s not the, that’s not the box I belong in.” That would be like if I was right-handed and you kept putting a pencil in my left hand.

I, no, I don’t write with that hand. Exactly. That’s it. That’s it. Exactly. Yeah. The impact on Jane and Matt’s marriage in this, and I, I do wonder I’m sure there are a lot of listeners who are having experiences like this where whether it’s because their children are trans or whether their children are, have ADHD, a lot, there’s a lot of we’re not medicating our child and this is not- aDHD is not a thing and, they just need to buckle up and, whatever. All of that shit, right? 

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: And the impact on the marriage, which I really appreciate the way that you laid this out in the book, because I don’t feel that it was heavy-handed. There was a, there’s a lot of subtle nuance to how- it impacts the [00:32:00] marriage that’s not, it’s not this overt thing, right? He’s not, he’s uneducated about it. He doesn’t really wanna learn about it. He has his own triggers and fears and all of that stuff a- about it. But he’s not overtly an, a m- an asshole, a motherfucker. 

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: As much as your daughter and I Were triggered by him and, both wanted to slap him upside the head.

Elle Baade: Oh, everyone hates him. That’s the most common denominator message that I’ve gotten is- 

Kate Anthony: But he’s not written as hateful. 

Elle Baade: No. 

Kate Anthony: He’s 

Elle Baade: literally not. But people are like, “Oh, he made me so mad.” 

Kate Anthony: Yes, but that’s why. I think that’s why, because he’s not written as hateful. So the covert stuff you expose the covertness of it throughout.

Elle Baade: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: And so it’s real- it’s seething because he kinda looks like a good guy from the outside, and everybody knows that bumbling nice guy that’s actually a motherfucker in their marriage. Or it, the co- it’s the covertness that makes it so infuriating, I think. [00:33:00] 

Elle Baade: Yes. I feel like it’s very real because- It is

that’s how so many of all of our relationships are, whether they’re marriage or friendships or- Yeah … with family or whatever, where you’re like, I love you, but damn, you’re a pain in the ass sometimes.” And “But we’ll muddle through. We’ll figure it out. You’ll come around,” whatever, right?

But, 

Kate Anthony: and in most of the marriages for the women that are listening to this, most of their marriages it is the thing that ends the marriage. Once they see it- Yeah … once they see that oh, this is covert narcissism, or this is covert abuse, or this is, this is a values misalignment that I cannot live with, once you see that, you can’t unsee it.

Elle Baade: Oh, absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: And that’s what happens to Jane, right? She sees it, and- Yeah … and by the way, the book, you know, spoiler, does not end in divorce. It just, it ends in choice. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Which I think is really w- a wonderful place for Jane to arrive at, that oh, I get to choose. 

Elle Baade: Yes. [00:34:00] Especially because she didn’t even know she could.

Exactly. She’s she was more afraid of losing Matt than she was ever of anything in her life, and- … still she chose her own child over that. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. It’s an amazing book. I love it. It’s so important right now. I can’t wait to see where this goes, ’cause I have a feeling it’s gonna go in pretty amazing places.

So if you all wanna get on the ground floor of this, get a copy of Consequences of Normal. It’s available in all the places, 

Elle Baade: right? All the places. 

Kate Anthony: All the 

Elle Baade: places. Yeah, indie bookstores, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, all the places. 

Kate Anthony: All the places. L, thank you so much for being here. And- 

Elle Baade: Thank you so much for having me

Kate Anthony: where can people find you? Obviously, we’re gonna link to the book and everything in the show notes, but if people wanna follow along with your other work and your amazing photography, and ’cause L is an amazing photographer, and knitter, and crocheter, and all the things. 

Elle Baade: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: She’s just very creative.

Elle Baade: Yes, I always [00:35:00] have to find something to do. Just I love it. It’s fun. Keeps us out of mischief, right? That’s 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Elle Baade: You can find me on TikTok, L Baade. Same with Instagram- … L Baade, I think it’s author on Instagram. Also have a Facebook page, an author page. And I do have a website, lbaade.com.

Not a lot going on there, … but, you know- Okay … y- you can… I think there’s a link to buy my book from indie bookstores if you- Okay … would wanna do that there. I wanted to make sure to- 

Kate Anthony: Yes … include 

Elle Baade: that on my website. 

Kate Anthony: Good. 

Elle Baade: And if anyone is in Southern California, I will be at Hey Books on June 1st in the evening.

I believe from 5:00 to 6:00. 

Kate Anthony: Where is Hey 

Elle Baade: Books? In San Diego. 

Kate Anthony: In San Diego. Yes. I will obviously be there. I’m gonna have to make sure- Yay … I can be there. I’m like, I’m saying that, but I better make sure. Okay, great. And by the way, Baade is spelled B-A-A-D-E. Correct. So when you go looking for her, make sure you spell her name correctly, or you won’t find her.

All right. L, I love and adore you. [00:36:00] Thank you so much for being 

Elle Baade: here. Oh, you too. Thank you so much. This was great.