Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back. I’m excited to have back with me Nicole Sodoma. She was, has been on the podcast before. It’s been a while, though. She is a nationally recognized family law attorney, author, and thought leader redefining divorce co-parenting and modern family dynamics. She’s the founder and managing principal of Sodoma Law, which is the largest family law firm in North and South Carolina, so all you Carolinians take note.

She is a former litigator, certified parenting coordinator, and a collaborative law attorney. She is also a step-parent, a mother, an ex-wife, entrepreneur, and all of the things. So- … definitely belongs right here for all the reasons. Nicole, welcome back to the show. 

Nicole Sodoma: Thank you so much. It’s funny I do wear a lot of hats, but I don’t think I wore all those hats when we met before.

I have to go back and… i’m- I’m not 

Kate Anthony: sure. I’m not 

Nicole Sodoma: sure. But- It feels like a life [00:01:00] ago, man, right? 

Kate Anthony: It was a while ago. I don- yeah, I don’t even remem- I, I should look it up. But anyway, we’re gonna talk today about a topic that a lot confuses a lot of people, intrigues a lot of people, scares a lot of people, which is separation.

Not just divorce, but whether it’s legal separation, just physical separation. And by the way, this is also going to depe- there are certain things that will depend on your state. I know North Carolina, for example, requires separation for a year before you can even start the divorce process, right?

So certain states have those. Some states don’t even have legal separation. But mostly people wanna know “Should I sep- should we separate? Should we separate first?” What are all the things people need to know for, about this, Nicole? 

Nicole Sodoma: Okay. And I always have to go through and clarify, too, because everyone’s state is different, just like you said.

Yeah. But also understanding what the words mean. That’s so important. For example yes, in North Carolina you [00:02:00] have to be separated for a year and a day before you can divor- start the divorce process. However- Y- you should not wait a year and a day to resolve the issues of how do we split our stuff?

How do we resolve custody? Is there going to be an alimony obligation? Who’s gonna pay for what when it comes to the children, child support? How do we take care of insurance? So there are all of these things that you can do before separation, after separation, and before you get legally divorced- 

That are so important. In fact, if you waited until a year and a day to resolve all those things, our statutes actually say that a lot of those things date back to when you separated. So you’re gonna cost yourself more trouble and money and legal fees than you’re gonna want to if you start that process early.

The idea is that the courts don’t [00:03:00] want you to be unmarried legally until you’ve had a year to think about it. But the reality is, because we’re a Bible Belt, is what I suspect for all these years, now every state is gonna have its own set of rules. Some of them are very similar. South Carolina’s very different.

I used to practice in Washington State, in Seattle. That was different. And just recognizing, one, what the requirement is, but also what does that mean for you? Because I’ll have people that come in that haven’t separated and they’ll hear, “Oh, I know it takes a year before we can actually get divorced.”

And I’m like, “Yes. However, the law in North Carolina treats you as if you’re unmarried from the time you separate.” So we get to work on all this stuff in the interim, and actually getting divorced is like a punctuation mark. It is, most of the time we want all that stuff hammered out before you’re actually able to get legally divorced.

Kate Anthony: So I just wanna clarify, ’cause this is something that is very confusing to a lot of people, right? Yes. We have to be [00:04:00] separated for a year. Okay. So what is separation? 

Nicole Sodoma: Great question. 

Kate Anthony: Is that- … s- somebody has moved out, or is it we have just decided? What constitutes separation? 

Nicole Sodoma: So some states are gonna require that you file at the time of separation, and then you go, “File what?”

Ask your state. Ask your lawyer- 

Kate Anthony: … See what you need to file. ‘Cause it could be file for legal separation- 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. In North Carolina- … in some states … wait, in North Carolina, you don’t have to file anything, which I always thought is, people always are so fascinated with that. They’re like, “Hey, we’re separated, so now we need to file.”

File what? In North Carolina, nothing. When you have been separated for a year and a day, you can file asking the court for an entry of a divorce judgment because you’ve been separated a year and a day. How are they ever gonna know that? Right? ‘Cause one, you have- Interesting … signed an affidavit saying you’ve been separated, and hardly ever, and I’ve been practicing 25 years, twice I’ve [00:05:00] litigated the issue of when was our separation date.

Kate Anthony: The date of separation.

Nicole Sodoma: The reason it’s important in, in most states is because it’s often a date that we use to value items- … marital in your marital state. It might be an argument about when you met somebody if your state has certain rules about what happens if you commit adultery or if you’re one of those crazy states like ours that has an alienation statute.

Like, when you separated is gonna become p- pretty important. So how do you determine when you separated? The idea of separation, if you wanna make it really clean, it’s I signed this apartment lease here,” or, “We had a one-page document that we signed and it said we agree we separated. We have a text message between the two of us that says…”

It could be something really simple. If it’s undisputed, it won’t be difficult at all. Separated means that you’re no longer living under the same [00:06:00] roof and one of you has the intention of no longer being married. 

Kate Anthony: And then the question becomes like, how do we make that decision if we haven’t made all these other decisions?

How do we know who’s gonna move out if I don’t, if we don’t know who… what the value of the house is or who’s… if we’re buying each other out? How do I pay for an apartment if I don’t know what my support is? There’s a lot of chicken and egging here. 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. Agreed. And there is no law that’s keeping you there.

And so when you make the decision to move out, or someone makes the decision to move out, unless there is an agreement in place, you’re winging it Unless there’s an agreement in place or unless a court tells you otherwise. So I wouldn’t… I can’t remember the last time I advised somebody to move out unless the situation involved domestic violence.

Kate Anthony: Sure. 

Nicole Sodoma: And because once you move out, you lose access to your home. Some states, including mine, would say that once you move out, the locks can be changed, and it is then [00:07:00] considered criminal domestic trespass, even if your name’s on the house. 

And and then you’re going to be responsible for the expenses of where you live, and if your name is on the debt at the house where you were living, you might be responsible for the expenses there, even though you’re not living there, but you want to protect your credit.

Knowing how all these things are going to happen is really important as a parent, as, a partner, really understanding what that looks like and then making an educated decision. Now, I understand that not everybody’s in that position, and they just, there are plenty of people, plenty of clients over the years that have said, “Screw it.

I’ll deal with whatever comes my way, but I’m, I can’t stay anymore. It’s not healthy for me,” and that’s okay, too. It’s gonna be harder on you, but it’s going to be okay. It won’t be pretty, and we can clean it up. But it’s just harder on everyone when you don’t have that plan, but sometimes that is what is necessary.

Kate Anthony: Sure, sure. And there are ways to make interim plans, right? [00:08:00] Like you said if we can spend this year hammering out the details, it’s really just a matter of I’m file… at the end of that year and a day, as you said, you just File what you’ve come up with, and then, however long it takes in your state, six months later, whatever, a judge signs off on it, you’re m- you’re divorced.

Nicole Sodoma: In some states, the judge doesn’t even have to sign off on the agreement between the two of you. The judge just wants to know that those issues have been resolved in order to get divorced. 

Kate Anthony: And so f- in the states that have legal separation, where you do file something, what is the benefit or the drawback of filing for legal separation before getting divorced?

Nicole Sodoma: I would say it’s very state specific as to what the consequences are. And the, the thing that comes to mind for the states where, that I’m aware of is going to be based on valuations, meaning the value of certain assets and debts, I think that comes into play. So regardless of where you are going to have to deal with at least three issues.

One[00:09:00] 

is how we divide our stuff, and when I say stuff, assets and debts. Furniture and bank accounts, retirement, businesses, if you own businesses together. So you have to understand what’s in, what is included in your stuff, right? Because sometimes people you’ll hear plenty of people that will say, “Oh, I heard inheritances weren’t included.”

Know what your state includes. That’s really important. 

Kate Anthony: In some states it is, unfortunately. 

Nicole Sodoma: A- or how you used the money that came from an inheritance. Can you trace it back? So there are all these things. So you need to know what goes into your stuff pot, and then d- know how it’s gonna be divided That’s one.

Two is if you have children, what a parenting schedule is going to look and what support for your children looks like. And the third, of course, is alimony. Called different things in [00:10:00] different states, spousal maintenance, spousal support, alimony, whatever you wanna call it. It is a payment from one spouse to the other if there’s a deficiency and a surplus.

And some states have calculators s- or pretend to have calculators, others don’t. There are some lawyers that have like on their sites it’ll say “Click on our alimony calculator,” but there’s… like my state doesn’t have an alimony calculator so it’s a- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, most states… They all have a child support calculator, but not- Yeah

but spousal support is always v- very 

Nicole Sodoma: wishy-washy. Yeah, I mean it… That’s why I describe it as like a deficiency and a surplus, and what’s reasonable and necessary, and standard of living and all those things. So knowing what that obligation is if there is one, if someone’s been barred from receiving it but would otherwise be entitled, how much and how long.

And you get the question of course like what if we’re making X amount of money now but we’re making 10 times that in four years? Can I ask for more? Or what if I lose my job?” So there are all these [00:11:00] nuances. Notice that in none n- not yet have I used the word divorce. Those three issues are so critical to the process, and ideally we know all, how those issues all are gonna work out by the time we actually get into our marriage.

But in some states, and I’ll say in North Carolina, you could live under that contract forever and not get divorced and not lose the benefits of marriage, like health insurance, like you might have health insurance through your partner. And I’ve got clients that are still married that have been separated and living under a contract for m- more than a decade.

They get along, they weren’t meant to be together. They were good partners, but didn’t d- but lost the intimacy, lost the purpose that they found for being married, and so they live under a contract so that they can share benefits. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. And that is a choice, right? Yeah. So that, and that is a choice. And you can do that, you can do that in some states.

I think New York State you can file for [00:12:00] legal separation and do all of the, you know, bifurcating, right- Yes … of all of the stuff And stay married because it is, ’cause it benefits you in one, in, in some way or other, one or both of you.

Nicole Sodoma: And that is a lovely thought for the emotionally mature humans who are capable of doing it.

Kate Anthony: Ding ding. 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. I know. Ugh. I know. It’s hard when it gets real. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. And yeah, and so what’s the drawback? What’s the danger? If there is emotional, like, immaturity or if somebody gets mad, someone pisses someone off, someone starts dating and the other person’s pissed off about it what is the…

what becomes the danger there? 

Nicole Sodoma: There are lots of things because you’re still tied together if there’s not an agreement that outlines what the relationship is. I think of liability because of course I’m a lawyer, and what you could do to damage each other’s credit. I think of the [00:13:00] IRS. They don’t care whether there’s an agreement, right?

Kate Anthony: Now does this apply for legal separation? Because doesn’t legal separation actually- Separate those, the pr- that, that sort of protects you in states that have it 

Nicole Sodoma: In states that have it, it’s gonna be treated differently. But- … if you have an agreement in a state that is not like that, and you have an agreement that you don’t have to file, then you are relying on the agre- on the agreement for any indemnification.

So if- … you have an agreement in place and your partner, your former partner’s creditor comes to you to pay a debt that was owned jointly by the both of you, but it’s assigned to you and they say we want you to pay it on your partner’s behalf,” if you pay it, you now have a contract to rely on to go back to your partner and say, “Hey, I had to pay this for you.

You have to now indemnify me or pay me back for what I spent. And if you make me hire an attorney, I’m gonna make you pay their fees.” An example of living under a, the terms of a contract, if that is what you so [00:14:00] choose it’s more rare than you’d think. It’s like a postnuptial agreement. I talk about postnuptial agreements a lot- because I think that it’s an opportunity to save a relationship, and I’m a marriage, love, and divorce attorney, and if you have two individuals who are capable of executing a postnup so that they can focus on their marriage, we don’t see that many of them either because they’re hard, it’s hard to live under a contract like that.

Kate Anthony: Say more about that, about creating a postnup and how you feel like it actually can help or save a marriage. 

Nicole Sodoma: So I think of,

Kate Anthony: Let’s define it first for those who- … who may not be familiar.

Nicole Sodoma: So a postnup is a, it’s, if you think of the terms of a prenup is this is what happens. It’s not effective until you get married, and then if we, if our marriage is un- if we’re unsuccessful for whatever reason, we fall out of love, one of us has an addiction problem, one of us falls in love with somebody else, one of us is, has some sort of trauma that, isn’t…

I don’t know. There are lots of reasons [00:15:00] people get divorced that aren’t salacious. Sure. And I actually think of the trauma one because I have had a client who was in a terrible car accident, and the wife was like, “I love this person. I just I don’t think I can do this for the rest of my life.”

And the person who got injured was like, “I get it. I don’t think I’d want you to do it either. You’re not, you’re living for me.” So I think that’s back to that emotional maturity thing. I don’t know. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. 

Nicole Sodoma: I don’t know. But crazy things happen, right? I’ve had since marriage equality, I’ve had clients leave their partners for same sex because they-

realized that they were gay or knew they were gay and was, were too afraid to come out of the closet. So there are all kinds of reasons marriages end, some headline worthy, some not, of course. The prenup would take effect when the marriage ends. That’s what a postnup does. A postnup says, “We’re married, but we are going to execute this agreement During our marriage in the event we separate.

And it is mostly used to deal with financial [00:16:00] matters. An example would be I had a client who she found out that her husband had a gambling problem and had incurred a ton of debt, and then she did not know about it. Well- 

… 

Nicole Sodoma: It might be considered marital debt, it might have been in her name, the creditors might have come after her.

And she said, “I will stay together, but if but you’re responsible for this. And if we ever should separate, this is never my responsibility.” Yes. “I want nothing to do with it.” We’ve used it when couples when one party committed an adultery, and we had clauses in it like we’ve had clauses if you start this relationship again, if you’re seen in the carpool line with this person, if I…

it was very strict about what communication could happen between this par- these two people. And if any of those things happen, this is what’s gonna happen to our estate. Yeah. But I don’t wanna think about any of that right now. What I wanna think about is how to parent with you, how to fall back in love with you all those things, [00:17:00] and I don’t wanna have to worry about how the money is going to impact us if we separate, because we take one pot and we divide it into two.

And that’s a financial strain that, that people don’t wanna have to think about. The most obvious time to use a postnup is if you’ve come into an inheritance or you own a business or you’ve received a business, and you wanna make sure that business stays separate and apart

Kate Anthony: The prenup was, is created before pre-nuptials- Yes … before the nuptials. Post is 

Nicole Sodoma: after. 

Kate Anthony: Post is after. Yeah. That would be a good time to create, like in the separation period. It- Yeah … it- so the post- a postnup is a document that is created with an attorney and signed by both people. So if you are, if you wanna get separated, that sort of is part of the contract, yes?

Like, when you’re talking about living under contract, like a postnup could be that. 

Nicole Sodoma: [00:18:00] Yes. It could be a contract you’re living under during your marriage that is effective at the time you separate, but you’ve negotiated it during your marriage. 

Kate Anthony: And now is there a time limit? Isn’t there I think I know one client who’s negotiating a postnup, but they can’t file for 

Nicole Sodoma: divorce- The sunset clause?

Kate Anthony: Yeah. They can’t- … they can’t file for divorce for a certain period of time after signing it, yes? Is that right? 

Nicole Sodoma: My guess is I had to pause for a minute ’cause I was thinking about different states and the way that different places do it. There are all kinds of things you can put inside a contract, whether that is a state requirement or we’ve decided that, when we get to this point.

You can put in a- Yeah … in a postnup or a prenup, if we separate, I’m gonna be the one that ends up with the house, but you can stay there for two months. There are all these kind of parameters that you can put inside of a contract. The one that I mentioned with the [00:19:00] adultery and they entered into a prenup, it had a five-year clause in it that it was only good for five years, and that after five years, that the person who committed adultery would no longer be on such strict terms.

That worked for that couple. 

Kate Anthony: Good. 

Nicole Sodoma: And, That’s great. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Nicole Sodoma: sure … we entitled it a reconciliation agreement because really that’s what it was. Yeah. They were trying-

Kate Anthony: sure … to 

Nicole Sodoma: reconcile 

Kate Anthony: their relationship. It was the way to make the betrayed party feel s- safe again and put in, yeah, parameters in place.

My client who is working out, I think this is the law in her state. It’s like the, there are legal parameters around like a prenup, right? That like it can’t be signed the night before under duress. Things like that, right? 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: And so the similar for a postnup, that you can’t negotiate something in good faith that you’re gonna be married and then, five days later be like, “Okay, I’m filing for divorce.”

It’s not meant to be. A divorce decree 

Nicole Sodoma: Sure, that makes sense. And also, a contract, you get out of a contract the same way regardless of the contract. [00:20:00] So unconscionability, it’s so unfair that no one in their right mind would’ve ever signed it. Yeah. You sign it under duress or within a certain timeframe that no one would have done that, or you were forced to sign it, coerced.

You didn’t receive counsel or the right advice. And that- that time length between the time you received it and the time that it became effective, or the time that it was… Like, all of those things are factors that are considered when someone wants to set aside a contract. And so I think that plays into it, too.

Yeah. It’s all it’s all part of what would be considered fair. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Exactly. 

Nicole Sodoma: Fair being a very subjective word, Kate. 

Kate Anthony: Very subjective. Very subjective. Yes. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. So are there other considerations, right? When you’re thinking about separation versus just filing, what are some advantages of one over the other?

Let’s say you’re not in a state that requires it necessarily, right? [00:21:00] Or are there reasons that one might wanna take that, that road or not. Like disadvantages. 

Nicole Sodoma: Most of the advantages and disadvantages are gonna surround financial, going to surround whether, when the clock starts for getting a divorce and whether that means something to you.

And then the other one I think of is if you’re ready to start dating. Most of the time, divorces don’t happen because one big giant thing happened. Divorces often, I did a I did a reel yesterday and then I said, “Divorces don’t happen because somebody forgot to, put more granola in the container when they finished it.”

They happen because usually it’s a lot of small things that add up over time. And then yes, there is one big thing, but it was never the one big thing or any one small thing that did it. It’s usually this pattern that we identify when it’s done. And so one person is usually ready to date, [00:22:00] right?

So it takes two to say, “I do,” and one to say, “I don’t.” And by the time you get to the one that says, “I don’t,” there is usually some difference in where they are in, at that time. Yes. And so I think of that as being part of, could be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what state you’re in- as to whether you file and why you’re filing or why you’re separating. Also, timing I think is really important, especially as a parent. It may be that you’re trying to schedule summer vacay. It could be that you’re trying to make it so that when there is some sort of transition, that it’s during the summer months.

We talk about the trends- Yeah … in our law practice. Yeah. That, right now March is usually one of our heaviest months for for clients. Yeah. So we have a lot of consults in January, new year, new you. And then in March most of those people are returning to actually execute on the decision that we advised them of in January.

And [00:23:00] it goes like that usually through the beginning of the summer. And so timing might be something that’s really important to you. Aside from all that- This sounds maybe a little shady, but depending on the time of year, you might ask for separation because you know that you’ve got an influx of money coming.

You know that you’re considering selling the business, and what you thought you were gonna sell it for is going to be different than what you’re gonna sell it for. So that kind of goes back to what I was saying at the beginning, which is financial reasons as to why you might wanna separate. Now, of course, the argument is that asset something that the other person would be entitled to?

It depends on what we’re talking about, but that is some of the considerations I think we hear the most of. Yep. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. And I think, one of the things that, that you p- alluded to in the beginning of that which I think is really important when you said it takes two to say I do and one to say I don’t, is that, and I always advise my clients [00:24:00] of this, is that they’ve gotta give their s- their spouse, the person who is receiving this information, no matter how much time, how many times you’ve said it, no matter how many, years you’ve been saying you’re unhappy, when you finally say, “I don’t,” they will be blindsided, they’ll be shocked, all of the things, and they’re gonna need time to catch up And because once you say, “I’m done,” you’re like, “Let’s go,” right?

Yeah. You’ve been agonizing over this decision for usually years, and then once you finally b- are like, “That’s the last time I’m gonna deal with this fucking granola situation,” “I’m done,” like one day it hits you. Yeah. You’re like, “Oh my God. Okay, let’s do it.” And like your partner’s not there yet. And if you want to keep things as amicable as possible, if you want to make this transition as smooth as possible for your children, whatever else, maybe [00:25:00] separation is a s- little bit of a stopgap m- to allow you the separation that you need, and then the time to like emotionally process what’s happening.

Nicole Sodoma: Yes, it does tend to work that way, and there is some gender- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. … 

Nicole Sodoma: Stereotypes that also play into that. So there, there are lots of different things that I think you- 

Kate Anthony: Hold up. Say more. You’re trying to skate by that, 

Nicole Sodoma: Nicole. There’s some gender stereotypes.

You, the… But you’re right. The idea that you have been saying along the way, “Hey, listen, I don’t know how long, much longer I can do this. I don’t know how much longer I’m gonna let you talk to me like this,” and then you go, “Okay, I’m done.” I remember being in a therapist…

You second-guess yourself when you’re the one making the decision to separate, often, is what I hear. I experienced it as well, like am I making the right decision for m- myself, for my friends, my f- I mean my kids for my family? And I [00:26:00] remember I’d, I had agonized over it and been vocal about it, and then sat down in a therapist office to make, to understand why I was second-guessing myself, and I remember her saying if you’re not sure, then just go back.”

And I said, “What?” No. Like- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Nicole Sodoma: I respect you- And boom … but, and then it was like, “Oh, my God. Yeah, I’ve agonized over this so long I can’t go, I can’t go through this anymore.” But it was, like, that moment where I was like, “No, I’m confident that this is the right decision for me,” and- 

Kate Anthony: Yeah … 

Nicole Sodoma: yes, it’s going to be incredibly painful and not easy, but there are those moments, and you do have to wait for the other person to catch up.

I say you do, and you don’t. 

Kate Anthony: You don’t have to- Yes … wait forever. That’s, I was saying this to a client the other day. She’s like, “But how long do I have to wait?” And I’m like, “Oh, no, it’s finite.” It’s finite. You want to be mindful and- 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes … 

Kate Anthony: compassionate for their journey and then you put an [00:27:00] end to it because the, we’re not then gonna allow for stonewalling.

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. It, my least favorite tactic is stonewalling. I think it’s so important to recognize that, but to also recognize that at some point you’re not the same person you were when you were married to that person, and they are likely not to be the same person, and we hold people to this…

We sometimes I notice this more often than not, that we keep thinking that they’re the same person we were married to, and the people we marry are not the people we divorce, and then there could be growth beyond that. And I’d like to think, I think it’s harder done than said, but that we should assume good intent as we go through this process.

But it can be hard because you’re fixated on who you believe that person was when they were married to you. I’ve remarried. I’m very happy about my decision to remarry, and I’m quite confident that the person that my husband was [00:28:00] is not the same person that he was in his first marriage. I don’t know if I would’ve married that guy, I know what he was like and was… I don’t know if I would’ve married him. But I love him now, and I like him as well. So- … and, and- Yes, exactly … my ex-husband is remarried, and I’m sure that he would say the same thing about his wife.

So that, those, being able to look at it through a different lens to help you see the other side I think is important, and I think harder for some people than others. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. There are myriad ways to make this a, a better, more amicable process, and there’s myriad ways to make it way worse.

Yes. And assuming good intent is a way to make things, grease the wheels a little bit and make things a little bit better without being naive and stupid about it, right? We don’t want that. 

Nicole Sodoma: W- one of the things that I did when I was going through my divorce that I still employ on a regular basis is this idea, and I don’t know if [00:29:00] we’ve talked about it before, the idea that there’s a stimulus and a response and that and the…

I’m not, I, it’s, Man’s Search for Meaning- … which is an old book, and in it, it, there’s a phrase in the foreword, and it essentially says, “Between stimulus and response, there is space, and in that space, there is the freedom to choose.” Putting some space between whatever it is that is triggering you, whatever that stimulus is, whatever that thing is that makes you want to respond right away, one of the greatest pieces of advice is to just take that space.

Don’t hit send. D- you don’t have to answer the text right away. No. You don’t even have to answer the phone unless it’s an emergency, and even then, give it a minute. It, those things are okay, and those are the things that you’re in control of, and there’s so much power in that choice. And how you respond- Absolutely

is, could totally change, the entire trajectory. So it’s that assuming good intent [00:30:00] and also, like, taking that space even when you don’t even think you need it before you respond to that thing, whatever that thing is. 

Kate Anthony: Yep, I could not agree more. Put the phone down. Walk around the block. 

Nicole Sodoma: I still have to 

Kate Anthony: practice it.

Clear your head. Absolutely. 

Nicole Sodoma: Can I have a minute? 

Kate Anthony: Yep. Yeah, give me one second. And right- Yeah … and really practice this in your daily life. Practice it with the easy people- Yes … so that when the harder people come around, it just is second nature for you to say, “You know what? That’s a really interesting idea.

Let me th- can I get back to you about that?” 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. Thank you for sharing. It’s- Yeah … gosh, that, thank you for giving me your perspective. I just need, I need a little bit of time to process it. Can we have pause? Can we hit pause for a minute? 

There are very easy ways to hit pause. The other thing that I don’t think people appreciate as much as I think they would or they do, is the whole idea of using what we have in our bodies, [00:31:00] and I’m not gonna get all, yogi on you, but, I remember knowing what your coping mechanism is in hard times- teaching your children to explore what their coping mechanism is in hard times. If your body is your own pharmacy- … so how to explore that as an opportunity to help you through some hard stuff. So if I say exercise, people who don’t exercise are like, “Ew,” “I’m not going to the gym, and I don’t feel good about myself, and why would I go do that?

And oh, I’m too old. My knees, I can’t go run.” “I don’t wanna go walk. It’s cold outside.” There are plenty of reasons. So do some squats. Whatever it is that’s gonna get your heart beating, the dopamine coming, the, all the things- Yes … that allow you to use your body as your own personal pharmacy to help you through some hard stuff, I think it’s really underestimated.

Kate Anthony: No, it absolutely. And as a coach, look, as a coach, I use [00:32:00] these tools all the time, right? But yes, and I think culturally, we’re getting there, right? It’s much more normalized at this point. But yes, absolutely. 

Nicole Sodoma: Yeah. I s- I still hear it. I still have a hard time. I, when I went through the, the world of therapy for my own separation and divorce- she would always start with, “Put your feet flat on the floor and breathe.” That is so hard for me 

Kate Anthony: Those are, that’s grounding 

Nicole Sodoma: No, please don’t make me do that. I don’t wanna do that. I don’t think, I’m not thinking when I’m doing that. I’m annoyed that you’re making me pause. 

Kate Anthony: And that’s the point.

You’re not thinking. You’re getting into your body. You’re grounding yourself- No … in your 

Nicole Sodoma: body. No, Kate, I’m just annoyed that you’re making 

Kate Anthony: me do that. And yet what’s coming up for you when you’re- Yes … doing that, right? Which is like information, right? Yeah. That’s information. 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. I get it. 

Kate Anthony: Yep, yep, I know.

Such a pain in the ass. Being present [00:33:00] is so annoying when- It is … you don’t wanna be present to the feelings that are happening, but yet- No … you 

Nicole Sodoma: know- I’ve 

Kate Anthony: got a 

Nicole Sodoma: very busy day 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. Don’t make me think. Don’t make me feel things. Stop, right? 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, absolutely. Nicole, thank you so much.

This has been such a great conversation about so many things. I think your perspective on separation is really important and really helped clarify a lot f- questions that I had about, certainly North Carolina and like what does this year do? We’re just supposed to twiddle our thumbs for a year?

But no, you’re supposed to start making decisions. Any other final words of wisdom for our listeners today? 

Nicole Sodoma: Regardless of what state you’re in, the coping skills, the knowledge The resources, all of those things, regardless of even what the law is, there are things that your lawyer is not going to be able to tell you.

And you shouldn’t be asking them to tell you. There are other resources, [00:34:00] like coaches, like programs online, there’s such good books to read still, even if you’re an Audible listener, that are gonna help people through the journey that your lawyer isn’t going to be equipped to do, and that’s not what you’re paying them for.

Kate Anthony: That’s so true. 

Nicole Sodoma: Your lawyer is there to get you through the legal process, and they’re not planning your future. That’s right. And I focus so much of my practice for client… I can consult with anyone, anywhere about how to manage the divorce process, regardless of whether you’re in North Carolina, because that is not what your lawyer is trained to do.

And so finding the right people to be in your village, to be in your team, will be so paramount to your success. And and it, and not only your success, but if you’re a parent, your kids’ success. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. So 

Nicole Sodoma: by the time you get to a courtroom whatever damage you think is going to be done has probably already been done.

And so [00:35:00] getting ahead of that can make such a big difference to your success. 

Kate Anthony: Thank you. I- Yeah … I so agree. I so agree, and you just did a wonderful plug for my Phoenix Rising program because that’s exactly- Great … what we do, right? Yeah. It’s the 

Nicole Sodoma: support- So good … 

Kate Anthony: strategy, the expertise, all of it.

Nicole Sodoma: Happy to support. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Thank you. 

Nicole Sodoma: Yes. And 

Kate Anthony: thank you. Thanks so much, Nicole. And where can everybody find you and your work, your book, all the things? 

Nicole Sodoma: Please follow me on Instagram. I know I’m not- … I’m like a new generation to Instagram because I’m really that Facebook generation.

Kate Anthony: Girl, 

Nicole Sodoma: I, 

Kate Anthony: same. 

Nicole Sodoma: Oh. So I’m working on it, but it has been fun for me.

We d- I do lots of reels on Instagram now that I hope- Good for 

Kate Anthony: you … 

Nicole Sodoma: people found helpful. And of course, my book’s still on Audible. I narrated it and loved it. That’d be my sep- side hustle if I could have another. And I think on Amazon. So if you type in Nicole Sodoma, you are e- you are gonna easily find me.

Kate Anthony: Awesome. Thank you so much, [00:36:00] Nicole. It was so good to see you again. 

Nicole Sodoma: Thanks. You too.