This episode is all about parenting plans, spousal support, and the biggest legal truths people miss when they’re divorcing with kids. I’m joined by award-winning divorce attorney and My Next Chapter’s legal expert, Renee Bauer, who brings over two decades of family law experience to this conversation.

We get into how courts are shifting toward shared parenting, why some parenting plans need two pages and others need fifty, and the real story behind modern alimony. We also talk about the legal roadmap inside My Next Chapter and why having good information early can save you time, money, and heartache.

✨ If you’d like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here.

What you’ll hear about in this episode:

• How custody language has shifted from “visitation” to shared parenting and why that shift matters (3:23)
• What happens when someone demands 50/50 but can’t follow through (8:18)
• Why parenting plans range from simple to extremely detailed and how to know what level your family needs (25:23)
• How My Next Chapter pulls legal, financial, and emotional guidance together so you’re not navigating alone (30:23)
• The big things Renee wishes people understood before hiring a divorce attorney (35:08)
• How alimony has changed in recent years and why lifetime support is rarely on the table anymore (43:08)

Learn more about Renee Bauer: Renee Bauer is an award-winning divorce attorney, published author, and the legal expert at My Next Chapter. As the founder of Happy Even After Family Law in Connecticut, she’s spent over two decades helping people navigate divorce with dignity and confidence. Renee is also a sought-after speaker and advocate for reshaping how we think about divorce — not as failure, but as a chance to rewrite your next chapter with intention.

Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate’s Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch

The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!

My Next Chapter – Use code DSG to receive $30 off your first month
Episode 342: From Uncertainty to Clarity with Tamara Frankfort Odinec and Shari Joseph of My Next Chapter
Renee’s website
Renee on Instagram

Show Transcript:

Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back. I am happy to see you all. For those of you who are watching live for those of you who are listening in, I’m happy you’re here today. I have with me Renee Bauer. Renee and I have been connected on the socials and in the divorce world. For many years. And so I’m really excited to have her on the show.

Kate Anthony: She’s an award-winning divorce attorney. She’s a published author. She’s also the legal expert at My Next Chapter now, we, I did a podcast episode. With Tamara and Shari, who were the founders, the co-founders of My Next Chapter, and I told you all about that. We’ll link that in the show notes in case you missed it.

Kate Anthony: It’s a really great platform and Renee and I will talk about that. Renee is also the founder of Happy Even After. Family law in Connecticut where she has spent over two decades helping people navigate divorce with dignity and confidence. I love that. Renee is also a [00:01:00] sought after speaker and advocate for reshaping how we think about divorce.

Kate Anthony: Yes. Not as a failure, but as a chance to rewrite your next chapter with intention. Renee, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. 

Renee Bauer: Thanks for having me, Kate. I’m excited to chat. 

Kate Anthony: Me too. So you’ve been a divorce attorney for over 20 years, and so you’ve seen the industry change and shift, I’m assuming for possibly for better and maybe worse?

Renee Bauer: Depends on who’s asking the question.

Kate Anthony: Yes. Say more. 

Renee Bauer: When I started practicing forever ago, it seems anyway, there was this very traditional model of they visitation schedules. We’ll start with that, just the semantics of it. There were visitation schedules and we saw a lot of traditional like dads getting every other weekend and a dinner visit and [00:02:00] an overnight, and there has been a huge shift to just the language that’s used, where now it’s.

Renee Bauer: Parenting plans and not visitation. Just the language around that, but also what parenting plans look like and how time is divided. It used to be mom automatically had custody and dad’s had time, unless there was a reason not to have a situation like that. But now you’re starting off with the default as parents have shared parenting and shared custody, and then you tell the court why it shouldn’t be that way, and you work from that middle and then go.

Renee Bauer: Backwards. That’s one of the big things. And dads are no longer that, that parent that is off to work and coming home, spending time on the weekends, and dads are really an integral part of raising their kids there. There’s always circumstances and there’s plenty of those cases where it’s flip flops or it’s not like that, or there’s a reason for one parent or the other to not have that.

Renee Bauer: But we’re just talking about like generally speaking, [00:03:00] overarching. Big change. As well as alimony, which we’ll, we can talk about too. 

Kate Anthony: Oh yes. But it’s interesting that like even in 20 years, I. In my world, in my brain, 20 years ago was still like 1985, but apparently that’s not true, apparently. And I say that as the, I 

Renee Bauer: hate when the math works out that way.

Kate Anthony: It’s so annoying. I have a 20-year-old son too, so like I know exactly how long ago, 20 years ago. We’re talking like this in this century, 

Renee Bauer: I guess 

Kate Anthony: in this millennium. This has changed that much. 

Renee Bauer: Yeah, that much. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Fascinating 

Renee Bauer: For the better. So this is where your question is like loaded, like for better or worse.

Renee Bauer: It depends. If you ask the parent who wants to hold onto that, that parenting time and wants the majority and wants that physical designation then and their perspective, it’s changed for the worse. If you ask the parent who says, listen, I wanna [00:04:00] be as involved as possible in my child’s life, then it’s changed for the better.

Renee Bauer: So it’s perspective like anything else, 

Kate Anthony: what do you say to, let’s say somebody who comes to you, a stay at home mom who comes to you and says he’s a good dad. No doubt about it, but he’s not here. He’s at work 60, 80 hours a week, but the court is going to say. We’re gonna default to 50/50. Why should I have to uproot my children’s lives?

Kate Anthony: Let’s start there and then I’ll go into my other thoughts on this. 

Renee Bauer: So let’s say that is true let’s say that the. This person is working 80 hours a week and nothing is going to change, and they’re not willing to make anything change in their schedule, and they still travel a lot. Or maybe they’re taking the train into New York City every day and it’s a two hour commute in and a two hour commute home.

Renee Bauer: Chances are, it’s not gonna be that shared parenting plan because you can’t do it. [00:05:00] It’s just not possible. But if this per same person says, hold up a second. I worked that many hours because that was our family structure, that was our agreement. My wife stayed home, but now things are different. And I went to my boss and my boss says, I can work from home two days a week and I don’t have to travel as much.

Renee Bauer: I wanna be involved and the court’s gonna give them every opportunity to be involved. So what happened as an intact family sometimes changes up and sometimes people resist that. And so that person who says it’s always been that way, so should always continue that way. It really depends on how that other person feels about that situation.

Renee Bauer: And if they’re going to. Step further into that role as parent and just not allow the default parent to be that one person. Are they really gonna be helping with activities in school school meetings, teacher meetings, and doctor’s appointments? If they are, there’s no reason for it not to be shared. If they’re not, then you’re probably going back to one [00:06:00] of those more traditional parenting plans where.

Renee Bauer: Dad is getting that time, or that parent who’s the workaholic is getting that parenting time when they can fit it in or when there are gaps in their work schedule. And you’re gonna really have a custodial parent who’s still doing a lot of that. And then all of the financial orders trickle down are impacted because of that decision as well.

Kate Anthony: And the, and that’s where that’s what I was gonna say. That it, then you deal with, I rarely see situations that are that black and white. I most often will see, and probably because I deal with mostly higher conflict divorces, just ’cause that’s, that’s what I get.

Kate Anthony: And I think there are probably more of those these days than not. But I do feel like I the parent who has been the higher income earner, the worker the, the workaholic, all of that usually says oh no I’m totally gonna do it. I demand 50/50. I demand 50/50. And then they literally they do not have the [00:07:00] right.

Kate Anthony: What do you say to clients who are like, I know this isn’t gonna happen. 

Renee Bauer: So that’s a great question because that does happen. And that happens frequently. What I always say is to the parent to both of them, let’s start this now before the divorce is finalized, let’s put it into practice to see if you can actually do this.

Renee Bauer: And it could be. The couple’s already living apart and then they’re doing it. But even if you are living together, you can still do it. And one parent though has to say, hands off. Not I, it is not my day to do all of the things and stick to that, which is really hard for some people so that the other parent then can step in and do that.

Renee Bauer: And now you’re gonna start to see is this actually possible? Is that person actually making the effort to be there? And that’s gonna tell you. Everything about what you need to know about the parenting plan you’re going to write up and sign off on for your final divorce. 

Kate Anthony: I’m so glad you said that, Renee.

Kate Anthony: ’cause I give the same advice all the time, and this is part of why I don’t want you rushing into [00:09:00] whatever, rushing to file, rushing to get your parenting plan worked out, rushing to do all this, let. The dust settles so that you can see what’s actually gonna happen, because then you ha and then keep track.

Kate Anthony: Keep a calendar, keep doc, keep very clear documentation of what is actually happening because you don’t want to agree to a 50/50 split and then have to go and modify. Ask for modification of support, ask for, because this is, or, even a custody schedule ’cause it’s not happening. So take the time allow the space to see if this is actually realistic.

Renee Bauer: A thousand percent. And keep in mind that sometimes people will say that they want the 50/50 because they want a deviation for child support. And sometimes people truly want the time with their kids, and that’s not their motive at all. And it’s, we can’t say which is more likely to happen in your situation because you know your ex and you know your [00:10:00] situation better than anyone.

Renee Bauer: But if you’re in that circumstance where you have the spouse who just wants the break on child support, exact, doing that temporary plan will shake out what’s going to happen, and sometimes, and some, sometimes the child support guidelines don’t change. Even if you have a shared plan too, which is also a really important reason why you should be consulting with a lawyer.

Renee Bauer: Don’t sign off on anything. Make sure you understand the laws in your state because there’s case law and there’s guidelines that really tell you what’s supposed to happen in situations when it’s shared when you can deviate when you can’t, because there are laws that say you can’t deviate in certain circumstances.

Renee Bauer: So really understanding just because you know someone in a different state who did something and it is giving you advice, doesn’t necessarily mean that applies to your case. 

Kate Anthony: Say more about states where you can’t deviate. You can’t modify, is that what you’re saying? 

Renee Bauer: You can always modify.

Renee Bauer: Okay. So you can always modify anything you’re spot on, Kate with, [00:10:00] if you, if something changes and you have to go back to court and you, it may open for post-judgment and you don’t wanna do that. Figure it out now. Yeah. But there are rules on child support guidelines. And so in my state in Connecticut, there was a case that came down from the Supreme Court and it said that the higher income earner always pays child support to the lower income earner.

Renee Bauer: And there’s no due. Deviation and then they said maybe there could be a deviation, but you have to say this and you have to show this. And it gave all of these kind of hoops to jump through in order to get there. And so if, and that’s only if you agree, if the judge hears the case, they can’t actually deviate if you have a higher income earner.

Renee Bauer: And my point is, without getting lost in the weeds, is that every state has. Different rules, ev different statutes, different guidelines, different case law that comes out. So you really want to be sure that you are paying attention to what’s happening in your state and making sure that what you agree to is you’re not giving away everything.

Renee Bauer: ’cause you might agree to something that had you gone in front of a judge, you could get a far [00:12:00] better deal and your and court judges like to enter agreements. They don’t like to mess up. Agreements that people have so they could sign off on something that they would not necessarily do if you asked the judge to make the decision.

Renee Bauer: So take it upon yourself to educate yourself, to inform yourself, to make sure you’re consulting with people, not friends, professionals, experts, people who live in this space, to make sure that when you sign something, you know exactly what you’re signing, what it means, what you were entitled to.

Renee Bauer: If you’re assigning away a right to something while you’re. Doing it and not just saying someone told me that this is the way it is, or my ex told me if it’s shared custody, I automatically don’t get support. 

Kate Anthony: Oh my God. Yeah. Please educate yourself. I can’t stress it enough. First of all, there’s so much information on the internet now, like so much don’t rely on Chat GPT for this information.

Kate Anthony: ’cause it may not be right, but you, if you Google something like divorce laws in my [00:13:00] state. There is so much information. Almost every law firm has a blog now. There is just so much information and I don’t want anyone to go into this process. Not educated. There’s something else that I wanted to, that I always tell my clients that I wanted to run by you is that if someone is fighting for 50/50, they’re not going to exercise 50/50 the main concern is not financial.

Kate Anthony: In the short term, if the main concern is your children’s safety, your children’s, like emotional safety, whatever it is, if it’s physical safety fight, like hell do not sign 50/50. But if there is, if it’s one of those things where the kids don’t like going to his house and the primary concern is not if you know they’re gonna fade out and not exercise it, and the support is.

Kate Anthony: Like the difference might be negligible, right? Everyone thinks there’s this huge amount difference in child support from like 80% to 50% and often yeah, sure if there’s [00:14:00] a lot of money, maybe there is, but often it’s not that much different. I’ll sometimes say you know what, go ahead and sign it.

Kate Anthony: If you think he’s gonna fade out, go for the 50/50 and just know that you could file for a modification of support later if you need to. If you have full well-documented evidence that they’re not showing up, what are your thoughts on that? 

Renee Bauer: I agree with you completely. So if you don’t have a really good reason not to accept the 50/50, except for, I don’t think that my ex is going to meet their end of the bargain, but they haven’t given you any reason to show that they won’t.

Renee Bauer: And it’s a, let’s see and happened. I’ll wait and see sign it. Because then you can go back to court, document things. So keep track of everything, every time that they’ve missed or that they’re late, or just keep track of all of it. Now, you’re not gonna run back to court in the first three weeks.

Renee Bauer: I’m gonna say you’re gonna give it a good six months. Of having this person not do what they’re supposed to do before you then say, okay, there’s a [00:15:00] substantial change in circumstances. My ex has not fulfilled their parenting time. A majority of the time, here’s every date that they missed or they wanted to switch, and now I’d like to open it up, ask for support, because now I have the financial hit from it.

Renee Bauer: It’s not just I more time with the kids, it’s you have to. Feed them more. Feed them. You have, right? Like they, they leave the lights on around the house more like they, they 

Kate Anthony: fill every glass with water and then leave it, right? 

Renee Bauer: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. They eat more snacks, like all of it. So it actually, there was a financial impact and then you do that so important to keep track of it and not just run and file within the first, if you file in two months after the divorce, the judge is gonna get really annoyed.

Renee Bauer: We’re talking not a safety issue, like we’re just talking. Someone’s not fulfilling their parenting time, but the judge is gonna be like, all right, you guys just got divorced. What are you doing back here? Six months in, eight months, a year, or something like that. I think that you have enough [00:16:00] data to then go and say, okay, I have tracked all of this and now I have a reason that I’m filing.

Kate Anthony: Yep. I’m glad you agree with that. ’cause it, people get really freaked out about it, but sometimes it just, it works itself out over time. 

Renee Bauer: And then sometimes people are pleasantly surprised that their ex steps up to the plate and actually is a really good co-parent and that’s like Hey, this is working.

Kate Anthony: That is the best. Yes. And one thing you said earlier that I wanted to come back to, ’cause I think it’s really important, is that first of all. Create an in-home parenting plan before any, before you start anything, most people with children have to end up living together for some period of time before they are able to separate.

Kate Anthony: So create an in-home parenting plan where you are allowing, and what you said was great, allow them. The dignity of learning how to do shit, because [00:17:00] if you are constantly doing everything for them, they’re never gonna learn how to do it. This is the perfect opportunity for them to learn right when you’re living together.

Kate Anthony: But sometimes it’s really hard for us, especially as moms, especially women, to like. Just take our hands off and let it happen. 

Renee Bauer: And not just let them do it, but let them do it imperfectly and not the way that you would do it, just because that you don’t agree with how they’re doing something. Or their choice for dinner, let’s say when you get divorced.

Renee Bauer: At some point we just have to step back and say they’re gonna parent the way that, now again, we’re not a super, we’re assuming we’re not making safety or major decisions, but we’re talking about the little stuff that might drive me crazy. ’cause I’m a control freak. But it’s not harming your child.

Renee Bauer: It’s not dangerous. It’s not, we’re just talking about those little day-to-day things, and that’s really hard. For someone who’s always been the primary person doing all of that. So that’s a big [00:19:00] adjustment to make. 

Kate Anthony: And I’ve, I’ve had to talk to my clients about this, right?

Kate Anthony: Giving up control, really staying out of it, and the things that they think are so important, right? I have to say but really how he makes the scrambled eggs is not, it’s not that important, 

Renee Bauer: right? 

Kate Anthony: It’s not, it feels like it when they’re babies and all, 

Renee Bauer: But. It’s not what kids remember.

Renee Bauer: They remember. The, they don’t even remember because we have people who get so hung up on, let’s say like a birthday, and it’s a birthday, and both want substantial time. Your child is not gonna remember how much, how many hours they spent with each parent on their birthday. They’re gonna remember maybe a moment or experience around that.

Renee Bauer: So if one parent is taking your child out on a Saturday, which happens to be the day before the actual birthday, do you think that they’re gonna remember that it didn’t happen on their birthday? Of course not. They’re gonna remember they had a. Great time with mom and they [00:20:00] went to the museum and they did this, and they had chicken nuggets and that.

Renee Bauer: Those are the moments that kids remember. The kids don’t remember those little details that kind of make us crazy from as parents and the guilt, right? The guilt of oh, I’m not with my child on this particular day, and it means more to us than it actually means to them. So sometimes just putting yourself in the shoes of your child to say, okay, what am I trying to create for my child?

Renee Bauer: And does it matter to the hours to the day? Does that matter? Are you trying to create moments and memories? And those are the things when you have a 20-year-old, they look back at their childhood and that’s what they remember. Not a date. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. And sometimes they remember stuff that you’re like, you created something magical and that’s, and they don’t remember it.

Kate Anthony: And you’re like, well shit. 

Renee Bauer: That happens too. 

Kate Anthony: I always tell the story of when I told my son, we spent hours and days talking to specialists about how to tell our son that we were getting divorced and we did it. It was, [00:21:00] we did it right. We did it. Oh, we scripted things. We did the timing, like all of the things, and all he remembers is, I don’t know.

Kate Anthony: Like all I remember is you told me to get a box and pack some of my things to take over to a new house. And I was like, okay, that’s literally not what happened. That’s like literally not how it went. Like 

Renee Bauer: how old? How old was he? 

Kate Anthony: He was three. 

Renee Bauer: Oh yeah. My son, son was two. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. And like literally what the box was we’re gonna go to the new house, we’d already talked about the divorce and the separation and there’s a new house and you can take whatever you want, like giving him agency and you can take whatever you want to.

Kate Anthony: And so if you want like here’s a box and we can take some new toy, some of our toys over to the new house, that’s not what he remembers. 

Renee Bauer: Of course not. Of course not. And then a as they get to be teenagers. I think it’s really funny too, is what happens with parenting plans and custody.

Renee Bauer: Because the only one who has custody, if you have, I’d say anyone from 13 and above is like the their friends. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, a hundred [00:22:00] percent. 

Renee Bauer: And my son used to, as soon as he got his license, this is how custody was determined in my house. He would group text my ex and I. What’s for dinner to both of us, depending on how he and each of us answered, that’s where he would choose to go that night.

Renee Bauer: So I know

Kate Anthony:  Oh, little shit, 

Renee Bauer: right? I knew if there was salmon, he was showing up at my house and or if there was like, Hey, we’re gonna do takeout. He’s showing up. But that’s how totally little shit. That’s how he determined. Where he was going. So it’s not even, it’s not personal anymore. It’s not even about the parents, so we have to, and I think it’s hard as parents to, to let go of oh, but I haven’t seen you in two days. You think that your 17-year-old is thinking about that. They are not. 

Kate Anthony: They do not care. They do not care. They do. They do. But also because they know you’re always gonna be there.

Kate Anthony: Speaking of parenting plans, what are your thoughts on how granular versus loosey goosey I have thoughts on this, but I’m [00:23:00] curious about yours. Yeah, and like what should be in a parenting plan? 

Renee Bauer: Okay, so to the first question it depends. Every lawyer’s famous like phrase, it depends. That’s our non-committal way of not committing to an answer, but it truly depends.

Renee Bauer: I have done parenting plans that are two pages long and I have done parenting plans that are 50 pages long. It depends on the level of conflict, it depends on the people involved. Some people can be really open and flexible and they truly want what’s best for their child. And they’re able to recognize that the other parent is a good parent, and they said, we wanna keep it open-ended and we want to be flexible with each other.

Renee Bauer: A lot of times those are the people who mediate and they come in and their custody’s not an issue and there aren’t safety concerns and we don’t have substance abuse or anything like that. The other flip of that is the really pa long parenting plans that are absolutely necessary when you have.

Renee Bauer: Someone who, sometimes there’s mental illness involved. Sometimes we hear the word [00:24:00] narcissism used a lot, but some people have, tendencies or characteristics or other types of things that require, like the conflict is so high that everything needs to be mapped out as much as possible. So it’s going to be.

Renee Bauer: Who’s your ex? Who are they and who are the two of you together and how you communicate and which one do you need? Most people fall somewhere in the middle, may, maybe not quite 25 pages, but usually end up with a few pages, five pages, because they have holiday schedules in there. But it the goal is to probably put more in there than you need and to never look at it again.

Renee Bauer: That’s a win. 

Kate Anthony: That’s a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I recently got out my divorce papers and I was like, what’s in my parenting plan? Like I feel like we didn’t talk about anything. And I was like, oh, that’s weird. Oh, they, we put that in there, huh? ‘Cause we were able to be so flexible with each other that it just didn’t matter.

Kate Anthony: And I, so I always, I tell my clients, like you said, put more in than you, than possibly you [00:25:00] think you’re gonna need. I have heard my clients say my attorney says that’s not enforceable, so we shouldn’t put it in the parenting plan. To, which I, yeah. Uhhuh. 

Renee Bauer: Yeah, I sigh. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yeah. So my response to that is.

Kate Anthony: You’re not gonna take your ex to court if he introduces a new partner when they’ve been dating for two months, not six months. No, it’s not enforceable. But it’s a conversation you had and agreed on and signed off on 

Renee Bauer: it. It gives everyone guidelines to follow and it at least says, okay, we’re supposed to be doing this in theory.

Renee Bauer: And there’s always I had a case recently and then we went to court and it was I call it like the death by thousand cuts case because nothing was big enough to actually go back to court. All of the little things drove my client crazy and ultimately we went to court and the judge is like, what do you want me to do about this?

Renee Bauer: Because not enforceable [00:26:00] what are you going to do if someone violates the introduction to the new significant other? The judge really can’t do. Anything about that or isn’t going to it’s like a it’s a slap on the wrist. Make sure you follow your parenting plan. Next. There’s truth to not enforceable until sometimes it is.

Renee Bauer: Sometimes those little things might mount to something so large that you go to court and the judge is this is this is a big deal. This is for example, moving, relocating, or moving to, so I had a case where there, the the wife, mom moved really far away, stayed in the state, but moved far enough that the parenting plan was really no longer feasible.

Renee Bauer: So she didn’t violate anything. Actually did the agreement said she could move anywhere as long as she didn’t leave the state, and she did that. But now they have a 50 mile difference between houses, so something had to be done even though she technically didn’t do anything wrong. So you have certain circumstances like that, but.

Renee Bauer: To your point, [00:27:00] put it all in because at least it gives everyone the toolbox of here are all the things we’re supposed to be having a conversation about. And let’s hope that everyone actually does that and plays nice, but, and it’s at least, it’s almost like. Co-parent counseling to some extent to get to the point where that paragraph is in the agreement.

Renee Bauer: There had to be that conversation. So it’s like, all right, before we launch as co-parents, as separate houses let’s see if we can get on the same page about how we’re going to parent our child. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. Let’s just talk it all through, put it on paper.

Kate Anthony: We’re signing it, knowing it’s not, most of it’s not legally enforceable, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have conversations ’cause we’re parents. We’re co-parents. So I wanna shift gears a little bit. I wanna come back to all of this other stuff too, but I wanna shift gears a little bit and talk about My Next Chapter, because they have a really robust legal [00:29:00] resources that you have helped to shape.

Kate Anthony: So there’s a lot of online divorce platforms or support groups or whatever. So what makes this different?

Renee Bauer: I’ll use my own divorce course that I created. That was just my perspective as legal, right? So someone were to it’s shut down and not offered anymore, but it was just one perspective.

Renee Bauer: What My Next Chapter does is it brings in. Everyone else into the conversation. It brings in not just the lawyer, it brings in your financial expert, it brings in your mental health expert, it brings in your co-parenting. So you are bringing together a team of people who may be part of the divorce process and putting it, putting in all under one roof and giving you all of those resources.

Renee Bauer: So like you said, is. There’s so much out there and, but you have to go digging and you get a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this. And My Next Chapter, what, why I signed on and why I love it is because it really gives really good [00:30:00] quality, vetted information. To people going through the process.

Renee Bauer: And let’s face it, divorce is really expensive for some people. And one of the things I tell people is just because you hire a lawyer. Don’t expect your lawyer to educate you, inform you. Like sometimes you have to take ownership of the process. Even if you have a lawyer, you have to educate yourself.

Renee Bauer: You have to read up, you have to understand your budget. You have to know you don’t know what you don’t know until it’s. Smacks you in the face. And this is an opportunity, whether you’re getting a lawyer or not, to really start consuming all of the content that you need in order to make the decision from who to hire.

Renee Bauer: Do I need a financial person? Do I need someone valuing a business? Do I actually need a lawyer? What are my options? And it gives you everything under one, one roof. And the they did a great job of really pulling together. In my opinion, high quality people with integrity, doing the work for the right reason and trying to give people really good [00:31:00] information.

Kate Anthony: Yes, agree. We’re a little biased ’cause we are biased

Renee Bauer: Because we’re involved. 

Kate Anthony: But look, I think that your decades of legal experience, my, decades of work in this divorce space and relationship coaching like we are, and then you’ve got Mariana Strong and we’ve got really good people contributing.

Kate Anthony: Really top-notch information and just for people who are not familiar, it is a free content and community platform that has all of these experts helping. You can get, you can download videos, you can download worksheets and all sorts of stuff. And then there is, if you want a personalized. More personalized guidance.

Kate Anthony: There is a premium level membership that includes one-on-one coaching that I have helped frame [00:32:00] and access to legal experts and financial experts and all of that for now. You get all of that in the free version, but if you want one-on-one people talking about specifically helping you through your case, and it’s $99 a month, which is.

Kate Anthony: Crazy. And if you use, I have a code, which is DSG. It’s always DSG guys. You can get your first month for $69. So it’s a really great platform and I’m certainly happy to be contributing to it. I know you are too, Renee. Anything else you wanna say about it? 

Renee Bauer: When Tamara and Shari reached out to me, I was in my era of saying no to everything and that.

Renee Bauer: Email landed in my inbox and it gave me pause and I’m like let me just hop on a Zoom and find out more and let me, and once they pitched it, I’m like I’m in count me in. Time is valuable and this is something that I just thought was so worthy of what they were building. So check it out.

Renee Bauer: I think, it’s free. What? There’s no risk, 

Kate Anthony: right? Try the free version and if you’re like, oh, [00:33:00] this is really good and these people are great, and actually I wanna talk to that person. 

Renee Bauer: Yeah. It’s free, there’s so many videos in there about parenting plans and budgeting and finances, like there’s so much content in there, and you don’t have to go like scrolling and hope the algorithm finds you in order to find more.

Renee Bauer: It’s like right off, 

Kate Anthony: right? It’s there. It’s right there. So good. So good. Okay, so let’s go back. Let’s go back to what do you wish people more people knew before hiring a diverse divorce attorney? Because a lot of people are really, I dunno, they’re scared of you, I think. 

Renee Bauer: I thank you. This is the part that it’s so important that you pick somebody who is aligned with who you are and what you want out of the process.

Renee Bauer: So not every divorce lawyer is created equal. Just because somebody referred you to somebody doesn’t mean they’re the right fit for you. I there’s Kate. There’s a new show out now. I don’t know if you caught the first [00:34:00] Episo episode called All’s Fair and it with Kim Kardashian. It’s all about female law firm that our divorce lawyers and their whole goal is to create havoc and exert vengeance on their client’s exes. 

Kate Anthony: Oh, Jesus Christ. 

Renee Bauer: Renee and I write right? Every divorce professional goes, oh God, everything that we worked for. So if you are trying to find a divorce lawyer who is like that’s the typical pit bull. If that’s what you’re looking for, you are gonna be so disappointed in the end result.

Renee Bauer: Because that person sold you a bill of sale that they can’t actually cash in. So if they’re telling you they can get you all of these things and they can do all of this for you, it just doesn’t work that way. The court are not punitive. They’re not there to punish. So make sure that when you hire someone like you are ha, you could trust this person to give you a straight up.

Renee Bauer: Truth telling [00:36:00] advice, not someone who’s just going to yes you, to you to death and promise you all of these things. So important to make sure you’re having that conversation with the lawyer to say, okay, this is how I want this to play out. I want mediation, or I want to come to the table and try to resolve this.

Renee Bauer: And you don’t end up with a lawyer who starts filing motions and starts pouring. Gasoline on a fire that’s already been sparked. And because what happens is you just, it costs you a whole lot of money. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. That’s all you get. 

Renee Bauer: That’s all that happens. 

Kate Anthony: That’s all you get. The whole thing is a giant bill.

Kate Anthony: Yes, that’s right. 

Renee Bauer: And sometimes that has to happen. Sometimes you have a situation where it’s just if someone’s stealing money or it’s so they’re, it’s unhealthy for the kids in terms of this other parent can’t. There’s issues like sometimes you need that level of aggressiveness, but most cases don’t need that.

Renee Bauer: So make sure that you’re really vetting that person. Ask them questions about [00:37:00] how, and this is a big one, is how responsive are they? Are you going to email them and you don’t hear from them for two or three weeks? That is unacceptable. In my mind, 48 hours is probably too long. A response time, 24 hours is acceptable. You should be able to reach out to your lawyer and get a response, even if it’s a, I’m really busy in court, but let’s talk on this day. And that’s a common complaint that’s this is why lawyers get grief, is because they don’t respond to their clients. That’s why we have a bad wrap.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Absolutely. When you’re meeting with an attorney. What you said is really important that like they should be asking you what you want out of this process. And I think sometimes we don’t know. I think sometimes the client just doesn’t know. They’re like, I don’t know. Like I know what I don’t want, I don’t want this to get really ugly and expensive and I, but I don’t know.

Kate Anthony: But you want somebody who is going to probe that a little bit more. And if you wanna mediate, are they willing to be your [00:38:00] consulting attorney? You want a consulting attorney? I’m gonna say it till I’m blue in the fucking face. Renee, if you were going to mediate, you have to have a consulting attorney.

Kate Anthony: You have to have somebody who’s helping you know what to mediate towards. First of all, somebody who’s going to give you legal advice, which is not. Your mediator ’cause they can only give you information. ’cause they’re a neutral, 

Renee Bauer: They’re supposed to be a neutral. Doesn’t always happen. 

Kate Anthony: They’re supposed to be a neutral.

Kate Anthony: Yeah. It doesn’t always happen. And I’m not always mad about it. 

Renee Bauer: I 

Kate Anthony: know for my clients, 

Renee Bauer: I 

Kate Anthony: know you know when you get a mediator who can see through the bullshit and I’m not mad about that, but they are supposed to be neutral. 

Renee Bauer: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: To your point. Like I recently had a client who spoke to an attorney.

Kate Anthony: Hired, the attorney didn’t really know that like mediation might be an option. So the attorneys like, they just start their process and she sent her the draft [00:39:00] of the filing and it was so aggressive that I was like, I don’t think this is in line with what you are trying to achieve here. So it was immediately a hundred percent custody immediately, full legal, full physical, like all of it.

Kate Anthony: And yes, there are some issues and there are concerns and there are protections that need to be put in place for the children. But if you want to try to do this in the most amicable way possible, that’s off the table when you start, when the first filing. Oh yeah. Is that aggressive? And that attorney obviously didn’t ask her like, how do you wanna do this?

Renee Bauer: Yep. Yep. And what it does is imagine being the other person receiving that paperwork and then they go and lawyer up with another a hundred percent progressive lawyer, and now the two of you just probably spent $5,000 in the first month. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right.

Renee Bauer: Fighting motions and. 

Kate Anthony: As he should. That is the appropriate way to respond to something [00:40:00] that aggressive.

Kate Anthony: So you’ve now blown $10,000 of your children’s. What could have been going into your children’s five two nines, and that’s just the beginning 

Renee Bauer: and that’s why it’s so important to educate because had. She known that there were other options. Had she known like we can maybe look at collaborative remediation, or maybe I want someone who’s gonna take a different approach.

Renee Bauer: She might not have hired that lawyer. She may have hired someone else. She may have had the conversation with her soon to be asked to be like, Hey, what process do you wanna use? We have options. That’s right. Rather than bo both running out and lawyering up. 

Kate Anthony: And look, I think you know, and this is why she has a divorce coach.

Kate Anthony: ’cause I was like, okay, push the breaks. That was a draft that was not filed. Here’s the conversation you need to have with her next. And if that’s, and she’s not gonna hear you then let’s, look for other options. So this is why kind of the importance of a team approach.

Kate Anthony: ’cause I do so much educating about this. While also not being able to con, [00:41:00] retain divorce law in 50 states in my brain. 

Renee Bauer: And what your listeners have to remember is that most lawyers are overwhelmed with cases and they get a new file and it gets pushed to maybe a paralegal to do the drafting.

Renee Bauer: And they just become another number. So having someone else on your team who’s actually listening and saying, let’s have a goal setting session. Let’s just spend a whole hour talking about what it is you want. Really important to have that. And some lawyers will do that with you. But having a divorce coach, having someone else on your side to so that you get that clarity is so crucial to helping you navigate the whole process.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Absolutely. Renee. How have you seen the court system evolving when it comes to co-parenting children? We talked about it used to be that, the default was dad’s get visitation and all of that, but how have you seen it over the years evolving 

Renee Bauer: so that you know that’s a big.

Renee Bauer: Part of it. [00:43:00] Let’s talk about, because I’ve been chomping at the bit to talk about alimony because I think it’s a really important conversation to have. ’cause that’s a huge evolution too. Yes, you’re right. And alimony is no longer the going to happen in every single case. So typically, so when I started.

Renee Bauer: 20 something years ago, alimony was like, okay, higher income earner pays alimony. It’s just a given. Regardless. That is not happening anymore and courts are not doing, and I’ve talked to other lawyers in other states and they’re all saying the same thing. They’re not doing lifetime alimony anymore.

Renee Bauer: You don’t see it. Way back when lifetime alimony was a thing, and it was a common thing, and now it’s changing, and the courts are using alimony to be rehabilitative, meaning that it’s to give someone the time in order to get up on their feet, get recertified. Find a job and it, and of course it depends.

Renee Bauer: If you’re talking about a hedge fund person, it, that might be a different conversation, a very different [00:44:00] conversation about alimony. Most of us don’t live in that world. It’s like maybe you stayed home for a period of time and you’re gonna get alimony for a few years in order to get back on your feet and to set yourself up again.

Renee Bauer: But it’s not like the expectation that even. Half the length of the marriage is no longer the standard, and everyone loves to throw that term around and judges are just not following that anymore. And that’s a huge disruption in how things used to be.

Kate Anthony: Interesting. Even in like California, where that is it’s actually written into, I think it’s the law, the 50% of the duration of the marriage.

Renee Bauer: Oh, is it? 

Kate Anthony: I’m pretty sure. Dunno. In California, that is the statute in California, but in California. Everyone says oh, stay married for 10 years and you get spousal support for life. And it’s no. Under 10 years it’s 50% of the duration of the marriage over 10 years. It’s not specified.

Kate Anthony: That doesn’t mean, that doesn’t mean it’s for life, but it’s, but it is interesting. I’ve, I talk to my [00:45:00] clients about this all the time because they’re like we’ve been, we were married for 30 years, so I should get spouse support for life. I’m like, look, are you. Or are you in your sixties?

Kate Anthony: Are you disabled? Are you right? Do you have chronic illness? These are the reasons that you might get it for life. If you’re in your, if you’re, in your forties and if you’re in your forties and married for 30 years, we have a problem. But if you’re in your forties or even early fifties and you are capable, and you are able and all of those things, there is an expectation that you’re gonna be able to support yourself at some point 

Renee Bauer: in lifetime, usually is tied to your spouse’s retirement. That’s really what that means too, is that it’s lifetime.

Renee Bauer: Or modifiable when your spouse retires, because how are they gonna pay spousal support if they don’t have income coming in? Exactly. And sometimes it’s double dipping because then someone will say, yeah, but they have their pension. You already got half of the pension, so now you don’t get more spousal support that’s getting paid from their pension.

Renee Bauer: Because now [00:46:00] then that means you’re getting more of that asset. 

Kate Anthony: You already did your quadro, you already have that. So interesting. Renee, I feel like we can talk about this forever. I love talking to you about this. Is there anything else that you wanna share that we didn’t touch on? I know we got to the alimony eventually.

Kate Anthony: I’m glad. 

Renee Bauer: Yeah. And just the non-legal perspective is that the goal is to get on the other side of it and stand on your own two feet. As quickly as possible if you’re in a situation and I know Kate at one point you had a whole platform and I think course on do you stay or do you go right?

Renee Bauer: Like I still do. Absolutely. Yeah, 

Kate Anthony: absolutely. 

Renee Bauer: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: Oh 

Renee Bauer: yeah. So when someone comes to me and they, and I just had this, the person came to me 10 years ago and their marriage was in a horrible place. Now they came to me again and their kids are off in college. I’m like, you just wasted 10 years of your life.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely 

Renee Bauer: don’t stay because of the kids. Don’t stay because you’re waiting for something if you know it’s not gonna [00:47:00] work. Like you know in your gut that this is not, this is over. It is done, and just pull the bandaid off. It’s gonna hurt now. It’s gonna hurt in 10 years, but at least if you do it now, you have the chance to move forward, find happiness, find love, find whatever it is that you’re looking for.

Renee Bauer: So don’t wait. Don’t. Wait for that moment, for that perfect timing. It’s never going to be there. And then when you’re in the legal process, the goal should be, how do we get out of this? Get what you’re entitled to, make sure you’re educated and you’re not given everything away, but then let go, which is really hard.

Renee Bauer: The resentment, the anger, the victimhood, and say, okay, because the, when you hold onto that stuff, you will never become the hero of your own story. You will never move forward. And the goal really is so that a year after your divorce you can look up and say, wow, I never thought life would be this amazing.

Renee Bauer: And look at me doing all of the things. Look at me cutting the lawn that I never even knew how to operate. The lawnmower. Look at [00:48:00] me. And it’s scary as hell. But it’s so worth it when you know that it’s the right thing for you. 

Kate Anthony: I love that. Renee, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. That’s of course, beautiful.

Kate Anthony: And so well said, Renee, where can everybody find you? 

Renee Bauer: So Instagram is where I hang out, which is at Ms. Renee Bauer. I’m there, or if you are looking for the resources, you can go to My Next Chapter and there’s a whole bunch of videos of me talking about all kinds of legal stuff on there as well.

Kate Anthony: Awesome. And it’s My Next Chapter is just My Next Chapter.com, and you can use the code DSG if you wanted to do the paid version of it. Renee, it’s so great to collaborate with you, to talk to you, and there will be more. 

Renee Bauer: Of course. It is. So good. So good to have this conversation, Kate. Thank you. 

Kate Anthony: Awesome. Thanks Renee.

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DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

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