If you’ve ever felt like you “just weren’t born a good communicator,” I want to stop you right there. Most of us are not born with these skills, instead we learn them, often the hard way. I know, because when someone asked me at my book launch, “Where did you learn to communicate?” I blanked and said I was “just born with it.” The truth? Communication is something I studied, practiced, and worked at for years.

In this solo episode, I walk you through the communication tools that changed everything for me. These skills didn’t save my marriage, but they did save my divorce. They made co-parenting possible (because he’d learned these skills too), built the foundation for healthier friendships and relationships, and became the backbone of the work I do with my clients.

This isn’t about becoming perfect or never messing up, it’s about learning how to really listen, how to be heard, and how to create connection instead of disconnection. And yes, it’s a practice.

In this episode, I share:

• How I learned communication skills the hard way
• Why Imago therapy can be a useful communication model, but not a solution for abuse
• The power of listening for feelings underneath words, not just the words themselves
• How feedback loops, timing, and permission are key to being heard
• Why I-statements, mirroring, and empathy create deeper connections in every kind of relationship

✨ If you’d like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here.

Resources & Links:

Download the Communication Worksheet Mentioned in This Episode at: KateAnthony.com/communicate

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate’s Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes On YouTube

Show transcript:

Kate Anthony [00:00:00] Welcome back. So if you are watching on YouTube, this is my very first solo episode in which I am recording video. So bear with me. My, 30 years acting career probably didn’t prepare me for this exactly. So I’m gonna do my best. And if you’re just listening. Welcome back. As always, if you feel like checking in on the YouTubes go ahead and do so because if you wanna see my face, come see my face.

And if you don’t, if you just wanna hear my voice, my dulcet tones go for it. Either way, you have choices now. All right, so today I wanna talk to you about something that’s been nagging at me for a couple of years, weirdly. Okay. When my book came out, I had a book launch event in Pasadena at Romans bookstore, which is an amazing independent bookstore, my dear friend, Samara Bay.

Moderated it for me, and there was a q and a [00:01:22] afterwards and somebody asked, where did you learn to communicate? It was a really sort of poignant, wonderful question. They said, where did you learn your communication skills? And in that moment I froze and I was like, I don’t know. I think I was just born with it.

I went home and ever since then, this has been now I think two years, almost two years. I have been thinking about this and thinking, first of all, that’s such bullshit. Like I didn’t, I was not born with this at all. I learned my communication skills really, like they were hard won skills. I went home and I pondering it and pondering it, and I was like, oh my God, no.

I learned, I studied communication. Now, for those of you who don’t know, communication is like one of my top skills. It is one of the things that I am best at. It is one of the things I’m known for. Susan Guthrie calls [00:02:00] me the communication queen. I spend my life. Scripting conversations for my clients. This is a huge part of what I do with my clients.

I literally script conversations for and with them, I’ll just immediately say I think you should say this, and they’re like frantically scrambling notes about what I say, right? I am the one who has created the entire framework for how to have a conversation about how you’re getting divorced.

Communication is what I do. I used to teach communication skills at a corporate level, at investment banks, at Citibank, at BlackRock, at Goldman Sachs, right? I used to teach communication in these places. This isn’t because it’s just something I always knew how to do or was born with. It’s because I fucking studied it.

It’s because I studied it hard and I learned these lessons very concretely over time, and for some reason in that moment at my book event, I could [00:03:44] not communicate that irony. So I wanted to acknowledge. Here today, finally out myself for that weird misspeaking. And then also I’ve been thinking about yeah, this is actually a really important topic that I should talk to you guys about.

Most of us are not born great communicators. We’re born, we can’t even talk. We learn it and often we learn it the hard way. We learn it through trial and error. We learn it through either having parents who are great communicators or are terrible communicators. We learn it by, in school now communication is actually taught in schools, right?

It’s taught on the corporate level what corporations learned after the 2008 financial meltdown. When. All of the mortgage companies and other organization, investment banks, they had to do a bit of a postmortem like what happened here. Besides the obvious that they were taking advantage of [00:05:00] people.

But what also happened was and as part of the taking advantage of people, what they recognized was the one thing that was missing in all of their training as investment bankers, as mortgage brokers, all of that, the thing that was missing were, was empathy and soft skills that go along with that.

Which include communication, which is why for a period like going in and learn, teaching these communication skills was my job, because it was after that they were like, oh shit, we need to, all the knowledge about banking and finance and all of that can only get you so far the thing that takes you to the next level.

Is interpersonal communication skills, soft skills, empathy. Things like that. So how, what did I learn and how did I learn it? The, I think the first place that I started to learn about communication was in couples [00:06:10] therapy. I’ve talked a lot about the fact that my ex-husband and I did imago therapy, which is a very specific type of therapy.

I think it taught me great skills, communication skills. I think it also misses the mark on a whole bunch of stuff. Here’s what I believe about Imago therapy. If communication is really your problem, then it’s a great form of therapy to go into within your relationship. But since abuse is not a communication problem, and it’s not a relationship problem, going into an imago therapy environment with someone who’s abusive and manipulative will only, as look, you don’t go to therapy with an abuser, period.

Imago therapy in particular, it’s like you’re just, you’re learning how to communicate and how to talk about your feelings, but that’s not safe to do with someone who’s abusing you and is actually not remotely interested in the empathy required to succeed in the imago process. And imago therapy is, it [00:07:27] is a communication model really at the end of the day.

And I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but I think it was a long time ago, so I’ll just go over it. It’s a way of communicating. It’s very structured. So if you have an issue with your partner, you say, I’d like to have an imago dialogue, is now a good time If they say it’s not a good time. Yeah, shut up.

It’s not gonna go very well. So this is a really key communication aspect which is that you need to be speaking and in like landmark education, which is where I also learned some more communication skills, also very problematic program, recommend aspects of it, but ultimately don’t recommend it, but.

I, I did it for a while and one of the things I learned, right? They call it speaking into someone’s listening. Essentially what it is this person primed to hear what you have to say? Is this person in a good spot? If you have just come [00:07:00] home from a really stressful day and you, or you just got fired from your job and you walk in the door and your spouse is we need to talk about blah, blah, blah, and the way that you talked to me last night, you are not.

In any frame of mind to hear and absorb and receive what they’re saying. So asking permission from the other person, Hey, I’d like to talk about this issue, this fight we had. Is this a good time? That is respectful and also it’s strategic, right? You’re not gonna lay stuff on someone who’s not gonna be able to hear it.

Also, you’re not gonna get anything out of the conversation if they’re not actually prepared to hear it. So the first thing you do in this imago dialogue is you say, is now a good time? Then you say, if they say yes, you give your communication in bitesize pieces. The way a monotherapy [00:09:44] works is that one person is giving.

The other person is receiving, which means that the receiver’s job is to only receive and mirror. They do not get to rebut, they don’t get to say anything, right? So I say, I was really hurt by our conversation yesterday. And they raise their hand like, that’s enough information. And they say, you were really hurt by our conversation yesterday.

And they’re mirroring word for word what you said. Then you go on and say, when you told me that I needed to, get a job and make more money, it really hurt my feelings. When I told you that you needed to get a job and make more money, it really hurt your feeling. Then you continue, right? And so it’s like that, it’s give a little p piece and it’s mirrored.

There is no response. They’re not allowed to say anything in [00:10:50] response. They’re just hearing you. And then when you’ve said everything you wanna say, you say, I’m done, or whatever. And then they have to summarize. So what I heard you say was that when I. Told you that you needed to get a job and make more money.

It really hurt your feelings. You felt disrespected. You felt like I didn’t acknowledge the work that you do in the home, and the amount of work that I am able to do with you staying home and taking care of things on the home front. So they are summarizing what you said, but in their own words, and then they say, is that right?

Is that right? Did I get it right? Then you can say, yes, and I also said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they go okay. You also said that you felt blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there’s something interesting that happens because they’re not trying to defend themselves. They’re not arguing your point.

They’re not, they’re no back [00:12:00] and forth. They’re just hearing you. And then they have to say, I imagine you felt, and this is where the empathy. Really kicks in because they’ve had to hear everything you’ve said and then hear the underlying feeling. I imagine you felt disrespected, unheard, sad and scared, and you are going, oh my God.

That’s exactly how I felt. Oh my God. They get it. Or you say, no, I didn’t feel those things. I actually felt really angry. And then they say, okay, you felt angry. Now a lot of you’re listening and they’re, you’re thinking, no fucking way could this conversation ever occur in my marriage. Like literally no.

And many of you are correct. It couldn’t because an abuser is not capable of that. However, some are, right. And that’s where. Playing the game gets a little complicated because you think you’re getting somewhere in your relationship, but [00:13:20] you’re not actually addressing the actual thing, which is actually you’re abusive, right?

Which is not a conversation for an imago dialogue anyway, the point is this skill of learning how to say what needs to be said. Is a learned skill. And when you flip that around and you have to listen to your partner without defending yourself, without saying anything about, yeah. But you said, but yeah, but you, yeah, but you like, no, none of that.

You learn how to listen. And a huge part of learning to communicate is learning to listen. That’s just what it’s, and also listening, not just for what they’re saying. But listening for what they’re feeling. The other thing that happens at the, towards the end of the imago dialogue is that you say, after you say I imagine you felt X, Y, and Z.

Then your partner says, I [00:14:39] imagine that triggered your childhood wounding of. X right now, or you say, I can’t remember if your partner says it or if you say it like that trigger It triggered my childhood. I think it’s your partner that says it because this is where Imago I, I stray from the Imago process because the theory of Imago is that your partner can heal your childhood wounds.

Just by taking intentional action, right? If it’s I imagine it, triggered your childhood wounding of feeling unheard and unloved in, in your, by your mother, and then they take an intentional action so they, you actually make a behavior change request of your partner and you say, it would help me.

Heal my childhood wound of feeling unloved. If you would come home from work each day and appreciate, give me an appreciation. In Imago, there’s something called a formal appreciation. For the work [00:15:50] that I did in the home that day. So you could come home and say, I appreciate that you did the dishes and that you organized the linen closets and that all the laundry is done and I don’t have to think about dinner.

They can deny or accept the request and they can rate it as yeah, that’s easy. I can totally do that. Or Ooh, that’s actually hard ’cause that’ll trigger my childhood wounding of. My controlling mother who always wanted me to appreciate her or something, right? But I love you enough. I’m actually going to work past my feelings so that I can provide this healing for you.

And that’s where it’s like really empathic and loving and generous. And I don’t believe that it’s our partner’s job to, or it’s not really possible for our partners to heal our childhood wounding like that, right? They can make some inroads, but to heal it, I don’t know. This entire process allows for a level of communication where you are, if you are the receiver, you must [00:17:13] leave your point of view.

Your feelings, your need to be right at the door. You just do. You’ve agreed to this process in my world. It created an ability to listen. An ability to listen underneath the words for the real feelings. To also understand the childhood wounding, like when my husband was acting in a certain way, it wasn’t necessarily because of me, it was because of this childhood wounding that he had.

Now, the flip side of that is it created more compassion for the wounding than it did for myself. As the victim sometimes of his abuse, right? So it’s I’m only doing that because of my childhood wounding of blah, blah, blah. You know what, also what you’re doing is abusive and I don’t care.

So again, can be used for good, but can also be used [00:18:27] as a manipulation tool in abuse, which is again, why you don’t go to therapy with abusers. I learned how to listen for, we both did listen for the feelings underneath. And you know when your spouse says that the reason that they did something or reacted the way that they did or that, like the way that you’re speaking to them.

’cause if you just said, the way that you’re talking to me is not okay and you need to stop. That’s gonna create defensiveness. If you say the tone of your voice is triggering my childhood wound of when my mother used to abandon me or leave me or whatever. If you love this person, you go, it softens you, right?

It opens up these compassionate this compassion where you go, oh, I don’t. Want the person that I love most in the world to feel that thing that they felt as a child, that’s terrible. [00:19:30] Of course, I’m going to try to intentionally alter my behavior so that they feel safe again, if communication is an issue, not if there’s abuse.

I have dear friends who I have said, have you spoken to your husband about this thing that they’re talking to me about? Have you spoken to him about it? Have you told him how much it hurts you when they ignore you? Or whatever, blah, blah, blah. The response has been, I can’t talk to him like that.

I can’t say things like that to him. And I’m like if you can’t say to your spouse, what you’re doing is hurting my feelings and is there a way that we might, work together to solve a problem in our home, then I don’t know what to tell you. That’s not, to me, that’s not a marriage.

[00:17:00] And it’s not because they’re scared of their spouse, it’s because they just like what? That’s communicating. I don’t do that. Then this is how you’re, this is how you’re gonna live. And not just in this relationship, but in all relationships. The other thing about communication, I wanna talk to you about the there’s a model of communication.

It’s like you, you are sending information and then it’s being received by the other person, right? And it is being received through a filter. That filter might be the traffic. That they just got out of, which is why you asked permission to actually have this conversation. Now, the filter could be their childhood wounding, their filter could be, the meeting that they had six hours ago that’s still gnawing at their brain, right?

Whatever it is you, your communication is having to move through this filter and then it is landing. With that person [00:22:00] based on how you sent it, what the circumstances were that you sent it in, whether that was, we were sitting in the car talking or we are in the middle of a, an argument, whatever, and then the filter of whatever’s going on for them, right?

It’s the receipt, the on the receiving end, and then it’s landing, and then there’s this sort of feedback loop, which is. They’re gonna let you know how it’s being received, and that might be by their facial expression. They might be looking at you like, what the fuck are you talking about? That’s a feedback when if their facial expression is, I have no idea what the fuck you’re saying right now, then you are gonna have to alter your communication in order for it to be received.

Clearly, this person isn’t understanding what you’re saying and they think you’re crazy. So we don’t just keep yammering away in the same way. When we’re getting feedback that it’s, we’re not being understood, we shift the way we’re communicating. If I walk up to somebody who doesn’t [00:23:00] speak English and I start speaking English to them and they are shaking their head and looking at me in bewilderment, I don’t talk, speak English louder.

And if you do, it’s crazy, right? I say, oh, this person doesn’t understand what I’m saying. They’re, they speak a different language. What language do they speak? Do I speak that language? Can I communicate in that language? Or is there another way for me to communicate with them? And you figure that out based on the feedback that you’re getting.

And then you alter your communication, right? It’s the circular thing. You alter your communication based on the feedback that you’re getting so that it might land. Because at the end of the day, you want your communication to land. That’s the goal. The goal isn’t. To keep talking in a way that like the goal is not, I’m just gonna keep saying the same thing over and over again.

Louder and louder if you wanna be heard, which most of us do. It is incumbent upon us to deliver information [00:24:00] at a time that it can be received and in a manner in which it can be received, and then two. Be open to receiving the whatever feedback we’re getting, whether that’s words or facial expressions or physical mannerisms, right?

Altering our communication based on the feedback we’re getting so that it can be received. Sometimes the feedback is someone nodding their head like, oh my God. Yes, totally men. And then you get more amped up and then they get more amped up. Ah. Like you’re altering your communication based on the feedback.

’cause you guys both get it and you’re both so excited about this thing. That is a feedback loop too. When we don’t do this, any of this stuff, right? The. Sending information in a way that it can be heard or acknowledging the feedback that we’re getting. That’s how we have disconnection, miscommunication.[00:25:20] 

We get defensiveness. We get misunderstandings. I don’t know what you’re saying. ’cause if I don’t say to you, I have no idea what you’re talking about right now, then you can’t be. Like then the person doesn’t know to alter their communication and then we get like defensive and we get angry and all of the things, right?

And again, this is for everything. This is for friendships. This is co-parenting. This is my ex-husband and I had an imago dialogue in our mediator’s office at our first mediation, and he was like, what the fuck just happened? And we were like, oh yeah, it didn’t work to keep us together, but I don’t know, maybe it’ll work now.

And it did really. And this was about keeping the house and my ex-husband had a really good point about why he should keep the house. And I heard it in this Imago dialogue and I was like, oh, huh, okay. And it changed my mind ’cause I was having to listen the [00:26:30] skills. That I’m talking about here, right?

Listening, listening to understand, not just respond, listening for the feelings underneath it, reflecting back what you’ve heard. Even if you’re not doing an imago dialogue, you can say, okay, wait, I just wanna understand. I just wanna make sure that I understand what you’re saying. So pause for a minute.

That’s feedback, right? Can you pause for a minute? I just wanna make sure that I understand what you’re saying right now. What you’re, what I’m hearing you say is X, y, Z. Is that right? And they’ll be like, yeah, and you’ll, or they’ll be like, no, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m actually saying A, B, C.

Okay. So active listening, listening to understand, and if you need to clarify with your words, then do then there’s the nonverbal awareness, your tone, your facial expressions, body language, all of that, right? You can, when you’re listening, if you’re listening with your [00:28:00] arms crossed, and you’re like, really?

What? What? The feedback that you’re giving, the person who’s communicating with you is, no, I’m not interested in hearing you. If you’re not interested in hearing the other person tell them, you know what, now is not a good time. I am not open to receiving. Your communication right now, I’m just not, and I want to, but I’m triggered.

So can we revisit this another time? And if you are seeing this and you’re the person that you’re communicating with, if the feedback that you’re getting is, I’m not fucking open to hearing this, then you say it feels like you might not be open to hearing what I’m saying right now. Would another time be better, a better time for us to talk about this?

And they might be like, no, ’cause I’m not fucking interested in hearing what you have to say. And then you’re like, okay, you’re not gonna push through anyway because that would be bad. But also, that’s just not a way to be in relationship if someone says something like that to you. That’s just not a way to be in relationship with [00:29:00] somebody.

And then the other thing that is really important in communication is using I statements you might say, when you said x. I felt, you’re not saying you made me feel, you’re not saying, you x you this, you that. When you’re communicating something, you’re saying, Hey, I, when we had this conversation, I felt attacked.

You are not saying that they attacked you because you don’t know that. I felt attacked. A lot of problems come when we’re interpreting. The other person. So you might say, when we were having this conversation, I was interpreting that you were really angry. Was that right? You wanna check out your interpretation?

Is that right? Were you actually angry because I, it seemed like you were angry and they’d be like, no, I wasn’t angry at all. You’re like, oh. Okay, then I took it that you were, ’cause you were raising your voice. So you know, the behavior change [00:30:20] request might be like, when we have these kinds of conversations, can you keep your voice lower?

Because when your voice. Gets a little louder. I shut down because I feel like you’re angry. And then I get scared and I shut down, and then I’m not able to hear what you’re saying. So you’re keeping it about you. And any request that you make for a change in behavior is again about you. Like it would just help me to not react as opposed to you need to not yell at me.

But I wasn’t yelling. Yeah, you were really angry and you were screaming at me. If that’s not how they felt they were doing, they’re like I don’t know what to tell you. ’cause I wasn’t angry at all. So when you make your interpretations, what happened? When you decide that your interpretation of something is exactly what it was, the other person is just now they’re not open again.

This is about remaining open to hearing the other person and you’re shutting them down immediately. Just try to reframe things [00:31:00] as an I statement. I feel scared, I felt attacked. Maybe you weren’t attacking me, but that’s how I felt. And then it again leaves the door open for the other person to be like, oh my God, I don’t want you to feel that way at all.

That’s terrible. Mirroring is another skill. The Imago thing is very specific and controlled, and maybe if you’re not in an imago process, that would be crazy. So you don’t do it but you do wanna mirror, just try to mirror and be like, hold on, I just wanna make sure I’m getting what you’re saying.

I wanna make sure that I’m actually hearing you. I hear what you’re saying is that you are, that you feel frustrated when I close the door to the bedroom and. You don’t realize what I’m doing in there. I don’t know. It’s making something up and then validating, like I can understand. I can see that. I can see how that, how you would feel that way.

I can see how that could be frustrating and you must have felt right. Putting yourself in the other [00:33:00] person’s shoes and using empathy to ask yourself like what? Might they be feeling, not just if I were in their shoes, what would I be feeling, but if I were them with their life experience and their history, what can I imagine they must be feeling?

These are all skills that I learned over time in a few controlled environments but like over the course of a decade, to be honest, that I somehow forgot. That I had learned when I was asked this question in my book reading two years ago. But here’s the thing, these skills, number one, did not save my marriage, but they saved my divorce.

They absolutely saved my divorce mainly because both of us were willing to employ them and we were both had been skilled and trained in them. It has absolutely. Affected for the good, our co-parenting relationship over the course of the last 16 years. We communicate incredibly [00:34:00] well for the most part, except when we don’t, which is very rare now very rare, but for the most part, we communicate incredibly well, even through difficult shit.

It has. Enabled me to have healthy relationships. All of the relationships that I have or have had in the last 16 years are based on this level of communication intimacy. Because this is a very intimate. Way to communicate with somebody, which is why I think some of my friends who I’ve had these conversations with are like, Uhuh, no way.

It’s if you don’t wanna be that intimate with your spouse, then that says something right there, as far as I’m concerned, says a lot. It will impact all of your relationships. Work, personal friends, dating when you’re out there in the world, dating in your next life. This is gonna be really useful.

Learning communication skills will be incredibly useful. And look, it’s a practice. It is an absolute practice. And also [00:35:45] sometimes when you shift the way you’re communicating with people in your life, they’re like, what are you doing? Why are you talking that way? So you wanna say Hey, listen, I’m working on these communication skills, so I’d like to try and have this conversation in a different way than we normally would.

Are you open to that asking permission? Are you open to that? Send them this podcast episode. Hey, this woman was talking about communication and I thought it was cool. You wanna try it? Listen to this episode, applying these skills, right? Start small. Just pick one, one tool to practice this week.

Maybe mirror somebody in a conversation or. Choose to summarize or say oh, I can imagine that must have felt awkward for you. I’m sorry. And then notice the difference in the tone and outcome when you shift from reacting to listening. To hear, listening for, to be connected as opposed to reacting, and then just again, [00:37:00] be patient.

This is a skillset built over time, right? It’s not a personality trait. It’s not something you just turn on. It is a skillset that you develop over time. I’m going to give you a sort of practice prompts based on the stuff that I talked about. If you go to kate anthony.com/communicate, there’s a download for you that you can use that has practice prompts for active listening I statements.

Nonverbal awareness, all of those, all of the things that I just talked about. It’s a free downloadable worksheet and you can get it at katie anthony.com/communicate. And if you have any questions about this, guys, if there’s anything that you want me to talk about on the podcast, if you like my solo episodes or if there’s a guest that you want me to bring on.

Please send an email to [00:38:00] info@kateanthony.com. Let me know what you wanna hear about on the podcast. It’s September. We’re building up the editorial calendar for the next, couple of quarters. And I want your feedback. I wanna know what you wanna hear about. And if you like solo episodes and you’re like, Kate, just like.

Turn on the mic and start riffing about X, Y, and Z. Oh my God. I wanna hear it. ’cause sometimes I’m like, I wanna do a solo episode. But what haven’t I talked about? I am all ears. I love you guys. Thank you so much for being here. Don’t forget to grab your download, kate anthony.com/communicate. And if you like the video format, let me know that too, because that’s how we’re gonna do things going forward.

I know it’s not possible for everybody. If you guys, a lot of you are listening to my podcast in, in secret in, in your closet on your walks. Totally makes sense. Again, I’ve been old school, I’m like, it’s a podcast, it’s audio, the times there are changing. So I am rolling with the Times here.

All right everybody, I’ll see you next week. Talk to you soon. Bye.

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