Imagine what it would be like to create healthy relationships without sacrificing ourselves as women. That is exactly what Michelle Farris helps women do. Michelle is a psychotherapist and codependency expert, and this conversation goes deep fast. She brings both the clinical knowledge and the lived experience of someone who has done her own recovery work, and honestly, we could not have been more in sync.

Codependency is one of those words that gets thrown around a lot, and yet so many women are still walking around not fully recognizing themselves in it. At its core, it is what happens when someone hyperfocuses on helping, fixing, and controlling others in hopes of getting the love and validation that cannot be given to themselves. So externally focused that the magnifying glass never turns into the mirror. And if the focus is always on someone else, there is no reason to look inward.

This conversation gets into what codependency actually is, why naming it is not a disservice but a necessity, and what it really takes to start building a relationship with yourself when the focus has been on everyone else for as long as anyone can remember. 

Codependency recovery is not about fixing anyone else. It is about finally turning the focus inward. Knowing something is wrong is just the beginning. Finding yourself again is the work.

What you’ll hear about in this episode:

• What codependency actually is and why helping, fixing, and controlling are not the same as loving (2:10)
• Why getting targeted support for codependency and divorce separately actually matters (8:06)
• Labeling codependency as a “disservice to women”: Michelle explains why the problem has to be named before healing can begin (9:45)
• How Michelle works with women who in codependency recovery and what that process looks like (23:55)
• How codependency directly impacts divorce outcomes and the ability to advocate for yourself (30:51)
• Why wrapping yourself in the identity of mother can become its own way of avoiding recovery and what it does to your kids (32:23)
• Boundaries, what they actually are, why they feel impossible at first, and how to start small (37:51)

✨ If you’d like to watch the video version of this episode, you can find it here.

Learn more about Michelle Farris:

Michelle Farris is a psychotherapist, codependency expert, and anger management specialist with a passion for helping people break free from toxic relationship patterns. She’s been featured in top online publications and podcasts and has reached over 3 million viewers on her YouTube channel, where she’s known for giving relationship skills that work. Michelle empowers her clients to stop people-pleasing, trust themselves again, and build healthy, connected relationships through practical tools for codependency recovery, emotional regulation, and self-trust.

Resources & Links:

Focused Strategy Sessions with Kate
The Divorce Survival Guide Resource Bundle
Phoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective
Kate on Instagram
Kate on Facebook
Kate’s Substack Newsletter: Divorce Coaching Dispatch
The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast Episodes are also available YouTube!
Seven Step Mindset Reset for Divorce 

Michelle’s website
Michelle on YouTube
Michelle on Facebook
Michelle on Instagram
Michelle on LinkedIn

Pia Mellody Codependency Tree

Show Transcript:

Kate Anthony: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back. I am excited to have with me today, Michelle Farris. She is a psychotherapist and a codependency expert who helps women create healthier relationships without sacrificing themselves. Michelle, thank you so much for being here. 

Michelle Farris: Oh, thanks so much, Kate. I’m really looking forward to our chat.

Kate Anthony: Yeah, me too. Imagine, what would it be like to create healthy relationships without sacrificing ourselves as women? 

Michelle Farris: Yeah, no kidding, 

Kate Anthony: right? You’re a codependency expert and I’m actually really curious about your definition. 

Michelle Farris: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: For dependency, right? Yeah, because I think. 

Michelle Farris: I know there’s so many. 

Kate Anthony: We don’t have a, I don’t think we have a DSM.

No. Definite we don’t have a de So tell me how you see codependency. Yeah. And what are, what’s your take on this whole thing? 

Michelle Farris: So for me, it’s when we hyperfocus on helping, [00:01:00] fixing, or controlling others, hoping to get the love and validation that we can’t give to ourselves. So very externally focused.

Kate Anthony: I concur. 

Michelle Farris: Yes. And I’m in that camp. Been there, done that on the road to recovery. 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. For decades. And okay, so you’re hyper focusing on the other. And there are three things you said, control. 

Michelle Farris: Helping. 

Kate Anthony: Helping Uhhuh 

Michelle Farris: and 

Kate Anthony: fixing, helping, 

Michelle Farris: controlling. 

Kate Anthony: I think this is interesting, right?

Because we often think we’re helping, 

Michelle Farris: right? 

Kate Anthony: And we think we’re fixing. 

Michelle Farris: I know, 

Kate Anthony: but what we’re really doing is controlling. We think we know better. And by the way, very often we do. 

Michelle Farris: I know. That’s the hard part. 

Kate Anthony: The hardest part is that still doesn’t make it our place. It about codependent people, women in particular probably who like we actually.

Sometimes we can [00:02:00] see to the heart of the matter it’s almost like it’s our superpower. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I always said in my recovery work that our asset, our assets tend to be our defects on steroids. 

Michelle Farris: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: I dunno if I made that up or if that’s, you relate. 

Michelle Farris: Oh yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And so it is like we, we can actually see it.

Yeah. And very often we are a hundred percent correct. Where does that come from? Do you have any idea? 

Michelle Farris: Oh, yeah. I think as kids we learn to be hypervigilant and we’re really good at reading the room and taking the temperature of everybody else. But we’re not really good at knowing what we want and need because we’re so externally focused.

But like you said, that is our superpower. We have huge hearts and we know how to help. We know how to contribute, but we shoot ourselves in the foot because we never take our turn, 

Kate Anthony: right? We never turn that 

Michelle Farris: right 

Kate Anthony: magnifying glass into the mirror, right? And actually look at ourselves. It’s a distancing mechanism, right?

If I’m always focusing on you, I don’t have to focus on me. [00:03:00] You don’t have to look at the muck. That is me, right? 

Michelle Farris: And there’s a lot of kudos, right? This is why women are super successful because they know exactly what to do and how to help, but there’s no boundary in that if they’re sacrificing their personal lives for their work or their marriage for their, 

Kate Anthony: yeah.

Michelle Farris: For their wellbeing, 

Kate Anthony: right? Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Turning this towards divorce. 

Michelle Farris: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: We are seeing sort of an uptick, right? In women who are leaving their marriages. 

Michelle Farris: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: And often leaving them after, like being in them for a long ass time. And do you feel like a lot of this is, we’ve so much more education now on these things, right?

We can name them. We’ve got Instagram, we’ve got, YouTube, we’ve got all these opportunities, podcasts for us to learn. Is it that you feel, do you feel like women are coming to these understandings and realizations about [00:05:00] themselves later? 

Michelle Farris: For sure because I think when we hit our fifties, we’re really starting to evaluate our life.

We’ve had some probably traumatic experiences, difficult life experiences, and we realize, hey, is this all there is? 

Kate Anthony: And. 

Michelle Farris: Many codependent women spend our entire life taking care of our kids, our parents, everybody around us, and we hit a breaking point where we’re done and 

Kate Anthony: we’re so fucking done.

Michelle Farris: That’s right. We’re done. And that’s when we’re like, you know what? Maybe I deserve a little bit more. But the sad part is that we tend to hit a bigger bottom with this as codependents because we have a really high tolerance for bad behavior. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. 

Michelle Farris: So we don’t. Leave a marriage on a whim. We leave after years and years of contemplating and trying therapy and couples therapy and reading books and listening to podcasts.

We do all the things until we finally give ourselves permission to go, you know what? I’m out. 

Kate Anthony: [00:06:00] We just have that moment of wait a minute. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Where’s mine? 

Kate Anthony: Wait. There’s a big sort of bridge to cross between where’s mine and how do I find mine af when my focus has been on the other for so long?

That’s a muscle we haven’t exercised. And I know from my own experience, and I’m guessing from yours, it takes a long time. 

Michelle Farris: Oh, for sure. 

Kate Anthony: To refocus. The energy the brain, like the neural pathways. How do you see that playing out in women right now? That sort of bridging that gap between something is wrong and actually finding pathways to heal?

Michelle Farris: Once they’re at that point, that crossroads where they’re going to leave, most women, like you said, we have YouTube, we have Instagram, we have all these resources. So codependency is a much more known term and most women in [00:07:00] their fifties have probably run across it. And maybe now it’s gonna hit ’em differently and go, oh shit, that’s me.

Yeah. 

Michelle Farris: That’s me. Maybe it’s time to do the work because when you’re going through a divorce, you don’t, yes, therapy is great. I’m a therapist. I believe in it, but you need targeted support. That’s right. You need a divorce program. You need a divorce coach like yourself, because nobody That’s right.

Because nobody understands it from the 

Kate Anthony: psychotherapist. 

Michelle Farris: No, I absolutely agree with this because 

Kate Anthony: yeah, 

Michelle Farris: it’s like talking to a friend who’s not been through it. They’re not gonna give you good advice. I’m sorry. No, that’s And that’s right. Sometimes the therapist isn’t either when they haven’t been through a divorce ’cause they have no idea.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Michelle Farris: So that’s 

Kate Anthony: right. 

Michelle Farris: It’s really important to get the type of target support you need and whether it’s codependency and or divorce, get those bases covered because then you’re gonna be able to heal and come through the other side. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. I see it all the time. And we’re so conditioned, [00:08:00] especially if there’s been any domestic abuse Yeah.

Or emotional abuse, coercive control. 

Michelle Farris: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: We’re so conditioned to think of their needs first or think of how they’re gonna view this or because we are always funneling our thoughts and feelings through their thoughts and feelings so we don’t get in trouble. So we don’t take the wrong steps, so we and it takes a long time. I see it all the time with my clients where I have to say is that you thinking? Is that you talking like she, but I’m just trying to make sure that I don’t step on these landmines. And the fact of the matter is it’s a minefield and you’re gonna step on them. That doesn’t mean that we don’t walk. 

Michelle Farris: In that. That tell dovetails to a point where the pain of staying in the relationship ends up being greater than the fear of leaving it. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. 

Michelle Farris: And that’s when women make the change 

Kate Anthony: done. That’s exactly right. Yep. What do you say to, there are a lot of voices out there right now that will [00:10:00] say, something about know, I don’t wanna that, that labeling oneself as codependent. Or being labeled or diagnosed or whatever. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: As codependent is somehow like that’s a negative thing and it’s a, 

Michelle Farris: yeah, 

Kate Anthony: it’s a disservice to women or like it’s a bad thing. 

Michelle Farris: I disagree because at the heart of a codependent is a huge heart and it’s just one of our attributes.

That, like you said, it can be an asset or a liability, but we have to label the problem before we can actually get help. And sometimes, I don’t have a problem saying I’m a recovering codependent because without that I would not have the relationships I have today because I had to look at how I was setting up people.

In one-sided relationships constantly chasing them. It’s oh my God, if I didn’t have a label for that, what am I gonna do? 

Kate Anthony: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly right. Like I can’t heal from something I don’t understand. Or I haven’t named I feel [00:11:00] like. I’m so with you on this because when I hear that, I’m like, oh, so we’re just gonna close that door to recovery, or we’re just, this is not a bad thing.

It’s naming something. It’s I have a broken arm. Okay. The treatment is, I put a, I put it in a cast, I’ve maybe reset the bone, immobilize it for a while that’s all it is. And I think the negativity is only in what we make of it. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. And the other thing about is, oh I’m recovered.

I’m sorry. I have a codependent slips all the time. That’s just part of being human. And if we, oh my 

Kate Anthony: God, 

Michelle Farris: if we pitch it as a perfect process, nobody’s gonna do it. And the codependent woman is already superwoman, so they think they have to tackle their recovery perfectly. And it’s no. Oh 

Kate Anthony: God, please let it be messy.

Michelle Farris: know. Please just 

Kate Anthony: let it be messy. That’s 

Michelle Farris: right. 

Kate Anthony: Because that is one of the traits of codependency, right? Is this perfectionism and the, on the outside it all looks great and it all looks perfect. Of course. Meanwhile, it so doesn’t, but [00:12:00] we think it does. It’s so transparent, but we don’t even know that it is, and we’re so worried that anyone should see the cracks and the veneers 

right.

Kate Anthony: There is something so freeing and beautiful about being messy. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: When you’ve been holding it together, right? And doing the perfection dance. Do you find that? 

Michelle Farris: Oh, totally. It’s on my YouTube channel. I talk a lot about my own process because I wanna normalize it. I don’t want other women out there thinking, oh my God, I’m not doing it right.

Kate Anthony: It’s 

Michelle Farris: no, you know what? If you’re on the path, you’re on the path. You can’t mess it up. You just gotta keep going. 

Kate Anthony: Every fuck up every fall down, it’s information. It’s oh shit, look at me. I totally fucked that up. All right cool. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. I 

Kate Anthony: just learned something else about myself.

Michelle Farris: Yeah. And some of our biggest gifts from come from our biggest mistakes. I know for me they do. It’s like totally cow. That was a big one, but then it got my attention. 

Kate Anthony: Yep. Absolutely. Do [00:13:00] you wanna tell a little bit of your story and how you came to do the work that you do? I’d love to hear that. I’m sure my audience would, yeah.

Michelle Farris: I don’t know how, but like I always knew as a kid, my family was dysfunctional, so I asked my mom at 11, I’m like, mom, can we go to therapy? And she said, yes. Oh, I don’t know how, but she did. And we actually did like a year of therapy and it gave me the seed. 

Kate Anthony: It’s bad and if an 11-year-old is Hey, I think something’s really wrong with us.

Michelle Farris: Oh my God. I was, but the fact, my mom’s ni now 96. Yeah. Never did any work on herself, but she was willing. And it made me have hope, like holy cow, life could be about something other than the dysfunction. And then fast forward during my recovery, I don’t know, I think I was about 21 when I started Coda.

Al-Anon really, and. Anonymous. I dovetailed them, but it was such a humbling process because I [00:14:00] thought recovery was about fixing them and fixing my relationships because I thought if only I could attract somebody better, I’d be okay. And then, it’s no, that’s not what it’s about.

Kate Anthony: If only he’d stopped drinking, I’d be fine. If only he were this, I would be okay. I the, yeah, the concept and the notion that I could be I tell the story. I’ve told it I think maybe once before on the podcast, I’m gonna tell it again ’cause I Oh good. It was you’ll get a kick out of it. I think I went to an Al-Anon meeting and I had been there for.

I don’t know, maybe three to six months. That was early. It was early and I thought I was really having a hard time ’cause I think I felt in probably intuitively that my boyfriend was cheating on me. I think maybe we were taking a break. He was like, I need space or whatever. And I was so panicked about giving him space.

Michelle Farris: [00:15:00] Yep. 

Kate Anthony: So panicked. ’cause I was a hundred percent sure that he was probably, what if he’s with somebody else, whatever. And this guy in the meeting said so what if he is I’ll die? What are you? And I really meant it. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Like I really meant it. And he was so a little too callous and cavalier about it.

So what if he is? And his point was, so what if he’s 

Michelle Farris: right? You’re not gonna die. 

Kate Anthony: You’re not gonna die. I was a hundred percent convinced I was gonna die. 

Michelle Farris: Absolutely. 

Kate Anthony: What I needed in that moment was somebody to like, hold my hand and pull me through and under. Help me understand. If he’s cheating on you, like that’s not the guy for you and you’re gonna be okay. And like all of the things, but I didn’t have that sense of self yet, but that interaction with that man 30 years ago has never left me. 

Michelle Farris: Wow. 

Kate Anthony: Never, ever left. It’s because he was Right, and by the way, so was I. He was cheating on me. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I didn’t know it until I married him and [00:17:00] divorced him and figured it out much later. He absolutely was. And that’s like our strength, right? Is that we’re so wrapped up in fixing the other person, trapping them, holding them into our Yep. Thing that we’re, I’m actually, what I didn’t allow was myself to actually listen to my intuition.

Michelle Farris: Because you had it. 

Kate Anthony: I had it. You knew? But I was so focused on him. And not only would I have been okay, if I’d known at that point, my life would’ve taken a different 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Path. I don’t regret it. I got a kid, I do what I do now. Because of it all of it, right? And just that man saying to me like, but so what if he is 

Michelle Farris: that’s the core, right?

Kate Anthony: That is the, it is the core. Yeah, it’s the core. 

Michelle Farris: That fear of being alone. I’m not enough. I have to glob onto somebody. 

Kate Anthony: I won’t be okay. I will not be okay. At that point in my life, I was not okay. Alone at all, ever. But it’s also the core of recovery Michelle? It’s, 

Michelle Farris: oh yeah. 

Kate Anthony: The [00:18:00] core of recovery is you’ll be okay.

Michelle Farris: Yeah. But we have to be willing to go through that darkness. And for me. I had, I hit a bottom really late in my recovery. I don’t know, it was probably like 10 years ago where I had a friend, she was another therapist, and we were, we got super tight and I felt like it was a sisterhood. It was like the sister I didn’t have.

Kate Anthony: Okay. 

Michelle Farris: And one day she was like, I’m out. And I was crushed. I was like, I was so crushed. I was like, uhoh, what’s wrong with me? ’cause I am dipping so low into grief. For a year and I realized, oh crap, I got addicted to somebody again. That was the best thing that ever happened to me because I realized I am never gonna do that to myself again.

I went through the grief, I went through the I, I didn’t replace her with another friend, right? I didn’t go looking for someone else. It was like, oh my God, I have to deal with me not wanting to be in my own [00:19:00] skin, really. Even though I had done a lot of work, it was like. Wow. Making someone else your higher power is so painful.

And that’s part of codependency recovery. 

Kate Anthony: And that’s what we have done in our marriages. Yep. And for those of us who were married to people who were abusive or addicts or any of the, any of those things, it’s real easy to make those people your higher power because they take up all the fucking oxygen in any room they’re in, right?

Michelle Farris: No, they do. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Michelle Farris: and we go along with it. ’cause we think, Hey, I’m just gonna ride out the coattails because they love me because I matter 

Kate Anthony: today, but then tomorrow I don’t. But I’m just gonna keep chasing the high when I am.

In your experience we were talking about divorces that happen like later in life and like women who are like, it’s time for me. I’m [00:20:00] out, right? What makes this so hard and so triggering in a very unique way when you’ve. It’s been with someone for 30 years and 

Michelle Farris: Right. 

Kate Anthony: Why is this so it’s a unique niche, if you will, of Yeah.

Of this. Yeah, 

Michelle Farris: it is. And you add codependency on top of it, so it’s like even more triggering. Codependent women that I know that I love, and this is why I work with them, is they give 110% to their relationships. 

Kate Anthony: That’s right. 

Michelle Farris: And they don’t stop. They just keep going. The problem is that, like I said, they don’t take their turn.

They don’t ask for what they want, but they don’t know how to be alone. So for them to let go, even in a bad relationship, even when we’ve chosen to leave, it’s so hard to let go because the codependent person doesn’t really have a strong sense of self. We don’t really know what the hell we want or who we are, but we know who we are as a married person.

We know that, [00:21:00] know we’re, as a mother, we know that’s right. Yep. Not that you’re not a mother when you get divorced, but it’s different. 

It is different and it’s a total loss and rebuild of an identity. Whereas in a quote, normal marriage without codependency, sure you’re gonna experience some of that, but not to the level that you are so freaked out that you feel like, oh my God, I’m gonna have a panic attack because I don’t know who I am anymore.

Kate Anthony: I work with women like this, and it is so tragically difficult. How do you help people remove those blinders, right? In a kind and gentle way, 

Michelle Farris: right? 

Kate Anthony: To say What I’m seeing is this thing right? When they don’t, ’cause sometimes they don’t see it. They don’t know what it’s, 

Michelle Farris: but they might have a point.

That they are open to seeing. Like maybe they’re complaining about they don’t have a good relationship with their child, or they can’t let go and it’s really hurting them. So usually I look, ’cause you’re right, I’ve had that many times too, where the woman just doesn’t see it.

So I try to [00:23:00] find that opening of where they are open or where they do see a problem and then go down that rabbit hole. Because then hopefully they’ll see it. But the other thing that I think is really important, what you’re saying is codependency to me is like a tree. With many branches, it can go everywhere.

Kate Anthony: Everywhere. 

Michelle Farris: And we’re not gonna heal it all in one fell swoop. We’re not gonna be done in a year. It’s a process and we get what we get along the way, depending on where our willingness is. 

Kate Anthony: I love the analogy of the tree because it, to me it’s a p melodies, her codependency tree will put the PDF of that in the show notes.

’cause it really is we’ve got our roots and trauma and then we’ve got codependency and then we’ve got. Everything that comes out of that. And there’s process, addictions mood disorders and chemical addiction. Substance addictions. Everything. That comes and we can bounce around on the branches of that [00:24:00] tree.

Really? 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: All over it. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: All over it. How do you work with women who are codependent? What’s your. Is there a, do you have a process that or, 

Michelle Farris: yeah. So I like to dial it into three camps. One is building a relationship with yourself, because that’s the unsexy part that nobody wants to do.

If someone had told me 20, 30 years ago, Michelle, do this, you are gonna to get the marriage you want, I would’ve been like, really? Are you sure? But I probably would’ve done it, but I didn’t, sure. We weren’t really talking about that back then. And this also means trusting yourself. So if you’re on a date with someone and they drink too much, or they’re rude to the waiter, like maybe that’s a red flag.

Kate Anthony: Trust your instincts. 

Michelle Farris: Exactly. So to me, that’s the first camp. The second. Camp is assess your relationships. Honestly, most of us are in friendships that we’re feeling taken advantage of a lot, or yay, this is like a one-sided [00:25:00] gig and I’m done. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Michelle Farris: we need to be honest about what’s salvageable and what isn’t.

And then the la and then that’s where the boundaries come in and detachment and how are you gonna participate there. And then the last one is the family of origin issues. That’s where you’re going more into I know, and you know what people don’t I totally agree. And. That’s why I always say, you don’t have to start with that.

I, I, in fact, I tell ’em not to. 

Kate Anthony: No, I like that. It’s the last 

Michelle Farris: frontiers, right? That’s right. That’s right. And usually I like to wait until that organically starts popping up and they can start connecting their present behavior to their childhood, because that’s gonna be more interesting than, okay.

Let’s talk and dive into how horrible your childhood was, that’s not necessarily gonna serve anyone. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Let’s talk about your mother. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Do we have to? I love that. And then it’s so interesting ’cause when we, I think when you start with how do you connect with yourself? For most of us [00:26:00] that’s what? At the beginning of the codependency. 

Michelle Farris: Yes. 

Kate Anthony: For me, I used to describe myself when I first got into recovery as a head on legs. There was nothing here. Yeah. There was nothing between my neck. 

Michelle Farris: I can 

Kate Anthony: relate, and my hips, it physically felt empty. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: And so to begin the process with I think what must be a very sort of step by step incremental.

I remember going to my first sponsor in Al-Anon I’ve told this story a couple times, but. I had to call her every morning. She was great Uhhuh. She was finally, she wasn’t my first sponsor, but she was my first like long-term sponsor and she was amazing.

Was Black Belt double winner. She was just incredible. And she was like, I had to call her every morning and start off. She said, how do you feel? And I’d say, good. And she’d say, okay, good’s not a feeling. And I’d be like. To her credit I love her dearly. For, to this day, for this [00:28:00] reason, she said I’m not gonna be able to work with you until you go to therapy.

Michelle Farris: Whoa. 

Kate Anthony: Because you’re so disconnected from yourself. 

Michelle Farris: Uhhuh 

Kate Anthony: you don’t even know how you feel. And I was like, what? And so she sent me to this therapist who in our very first session, she handed me the feelings wheel 

Michelle Farris: Uhhuh. Yeah. That’s great. ‘

Kate Anthony: cause I literally didn’t know what a feeling was. What a 

Michelle Farris: lovely woman. 

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. Changed my life and every day I’d call her, I’d be like, I don’t mad about, and he’s doing, and she’d go, oh, okay. What step are you on? 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. I’d go, 

Kate Anthony: that’s not the point. And she’s oh no, it’s the point. 

Michelle Farris: And it’s hard to shift that because. As codependents, we can attract some pretty narcissistic toxic types.

So it’s really easy to think it’s all about them. Yes. Versus how did we set this up that we’re even here. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. And that’s not a victim blaming. 

Michelle Farris: No, it’s not. 

Kate Anthony: It’s 

Michelle Farris: not. 

Kate Anthony: It’s how, so how do you [00:29:00] frame that with your clients about, yes, we’re attracting something, but no, it’s not our fault. That doesn’t make us right.

It’s it’s not you chose him or, 

Michelle Farris: yeah. Oh yeah. 

Kate Anthony: There’s a fine line. I’m curious about how you distinguish that. 

Michelle Farris: I always. Assume that there’s always going to be a trace back to childhood. So for me, I was chasing my sister literally with women. I gotta get somebody’s approval.

So when we attract addicts, narcissists, people like that, there’s always a thread of familiarity because that’s how we feel safe. That’s where we feel like we can. Be with people. That’s not our fault. That’s DNA. That’s how we grew up. That’s we get set up to attract certain types of people based on who our family is.

That’s not anyone’s fault, but yeah. If somebody said to me too bad you attract him, I’d be like, I’m out. ‘

Kate Anthony: Cause 

Michelle Farris: [00:30:00] because we need That’s right. And, it’s, we do the best we can until we know better, but it really isn’t a process of beating ourselves up.

It’s a process of stopping that and really having compassion for what we’ve been through so that we can heal. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, it’s such a, it can be it’s such an incredible like joy and honor to see. Clients go from 

Michelle Farris: yeah. 

Kate Anthony: That place of lost and confused and dissociated and all of that to like grounding in themselves and Yeah.

Taking back their power. It is. And yet, it’s funny because even when, ’cause I’ve worked with some really amazing, Jackie of all trades women, and yet they’re the last to see it. 

Oh, a hundred percent. 

Michelle Farris: And that’s hundred 

Kate Anthony: percent 

Michelle Farris: part of the recovery too, is how can you own how amazing you are?

Because it’s not arrogant, but that’s what we think. We think, oh, I don’t wanna brag, but No, that’s really about celebrating yourself. 

Kate Anthony: [00:31:00] Yeah. To everyone who’s listening. I just want we’re literally speaking to you. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Like we’re actual, we’re not talking about other people. We’re literally talking to you that you are.

Fucking amazing in so many ways that you don’t even, you don’t know, you don’t possess, right? If you’re relating to things that we’re talking about in this conversation, then like literally, that’s you, 

Michelle Farris: right? 

Kate Anthony: Michelle, how does Div, how does divorce play into this? Like how does codependency, how do you see it impacting divorce outcomes process?

Michelle Farris: So the biggest thing is it’s gonna be really hard to advocate for yourself or set boundaries if you don’t have any recovery, because you’re gonna be worrying about what other people think of you. You’re gonna be worrying about what your ex is thinking of you. Versus, the whole process of divorce is a lesson in self-advocacy, really.

And giving yourself permission to say, Hey, you know what, [00:32:00] this is what’s fair. This is what I’m entitled to, versus, oh my God, I can’t take anything because I don’t deserve it. And this is my worth, this is my value. The other thing that can, how codependency can impact it, is if we’re not careful, we can transfer that relationship addiction to somebody new or our kids very quickly.

Very quickly and get caught up in the romance of a new connection, or again, pick a project person and try to improve their life from zero on up. And yeah, that’s just gonna distract you and prevent the healing 

Kate Anthony: or. Pick somebody that you think is like the magical solution to all things. Like they don’t need to be fixed ’cause they’re perfect and in fact they’re gonna fix me.

Michelle Farris: Oh boy. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. There’s that version of it too. And it’s interesting that you also mentioned about. Turning our attention into our children. And losing ourself [00:33:00] in our kids at this moment. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: I see this a lot. 

Michelle Farris: Uhhuh. 

Kate Anthony: And it’s a really tricky one, right? Because as a mother, like Yes, of course.

Yes, of course. Yes. And your kids need you, all of the things. And when you’re. Using them as a head in the sand 

Michelle Farris: or confidant 

Kate Anthony: or co, or God forbid. But also just to be like now I am mother and that is all I am, because if I’m not white 

Michelle Farris: uhhuh, 

Kate Anthony: i’m mother.

Yeah. 

Michelle Farris: All my attention’s gonna go to 

Kate Anthony: you. All my attention. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about why that’s not so healthy? 

Michelle Farris: Oh, this is so hard because. Parenting is one way. Not like our kids don’t love us, we want our kids to love us, but it’s really us providing guidance to them being the parent, not the friend.

Yes, you can have a lovely connection with your kid, but when we start looking to them to fill our empty void, it [00:35:00] gets really dangerous because. Then they start to feel responsible for you. And then I’ve had this happen so many times where the woman is codependent, she’s super loving to her adult kid, but now the kid doesn’t want much to do with her.

Because they feel engulfed and they feel like, oh my God, I can’t, my mom’s always texting me. She’s always wanting to know how I am. And it’s developmentally young adults and teens, they don’t want a lot of contact. And the more you let that be and back up that. Healthier. Your relationship is actually gonna be.

Kate Anthony: Absolutely. 

Michelle Farris: But codependent women don’t see that. And that’s the hard part is they just think why don’t they wanna spend time with me? But they don’t think it’s about that. They think it’s about the divorce. Maybe the spouse is poisoning that, they have other explanations because they don’t realize that the codependency is really impacting that.

Kate Anthony: That’s right. It’s very it impacts the relationship. [00:36:00] Motherhood I figured out along the way. It is a process. It’s a series of letting goes, right? Yeah. 

Michelle Farris: Oh, that’s for sure. 

Kate Anthony: You get this newborn and they can’t do or see anything. And then they can start to see things and.

Their gaze shifts from your face that’s closest to like, oh, there’s a world out here, right? And then they learn to crawl and they’re crawl away from you. And then they’re walking and they’re running around and they’re doing all these things right? And it’s like they just get further and further away from you.

And our job as mothers is to allow that. With parameters and safety. We put the baby bumpers on the corners and we, childproof the house. And when we don’t recognize that’s the process. And we’re just constantly trying to hold on as they go out and away from us.

And we’re constantly like, just, it makes the child hate you in a sense, right? 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Because they feel drained. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. [00:38:00] That was my experience that as soon as I became a teenager, it was like I was in jail all the time. Yeah. It wasn’t just because like I wanted to go out late and have a later curfew.

It was like everything. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. That’s why it’s really important to redirect that focus back from other people back to ourselves, because that’s gonna help every relationship you’re in. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And teach your children how to have healthy relationships. And how to have healthy intimacy.

Michelle Farris: Yeah. But if they don’t have that experience or they were enmeshed with their parent, then they’re gonna see that as the only option. Versus, it’s really okay to let your kid go a bit, but you have to have your own recovery program or your own support system so that you don’t constantly seek your child out.

Kate Anthony: That’s right back, back to the divorce thing. I see this I also see this with moms, with younger kids, right? Like I said, oh 

Michelle Farris: yeah. 

Kate Anthony: This identity where you say, how are you? And then they like talk about their [00:39:00] children or how do you help people through that when they don’t even know that they’re doing it?

Michelle Farris: I try to help them. See, like who they, who are they? Do they have any interests? Do they have things that feed them emotionally that make them feel like they have a purpose outside of their kids, outside of their marriage? Because to me, it’s like basing your happiness on other people is so dicey and never works, 

Kate Anthony: right?

Michelle Farris: But they also have to have that consequence to recognize, oh yeah, that doesn’t work. And maybe now they’re open to. Doing a little bit of something different, like starting a hobby, doing something for themselves instead of always doing something for other people. 

Kate Anthony: Yes. Yep. Yeah. And that’s hard, right? 

Michelle Farris: Oh, it is hard.

They get lots of kudos for being the best volunteer in the kids school, right? 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. And we have to give up our superstar status sometimes and realize that it’s really not worth that anymore, right? Because of the price we’re [00:40:00] paying. 

Kate Anthony: Let’s shift and talk about boundaries a little bit.

How do you work with boundaries? What’s your, do you have a def, a working definition, or like all of that? Yeah. 

Michelle Farris: I really like keeping it simple. 

Kate Anthony: Uhhuh 

Michelle Farris: boundaries to me are about the choices we make on what we’re gonna participate in and when we’re gonna remove ourselves. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah, 

Michelle Farris: simple. I’m saying yes to something or I’m saying no to something.

Yeah. Because when we tie a boundary to what somebody else is doing, we are gonna be frustrated because we’re totally powerless over what the other person is gonna say or do. But if you have somebody that is being nasty towards you, you can leave the room. You can say, you know what, I’m gonna hang up now.

Click. Like we don’t have to stay and participate in toxic conversations. And during a divorce, that’s even more important. Because you can end up fighting about the marriage, but the marriage is already over. So it’s 

come 

Michelle Farris: on. Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: It’s like going to couples therapy when you’re going getting divorced.

What are you doing? You’re not in this relationship anymore. That’s the point. 

Michelle Farris: But [00:41:00] that’s part of recovery is to spot, oh. We’re starting to head down that road. He’s name calling me, he’s gaslighting me. I’m gonna step away. 

Kate Anthony: I remember my early recovery. I wonder your experience about this, like when people would say such a thing like you can just hang up the phone.

I’d be like you don’t understand. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: You don’t understand. 

Michelle Farris: Sure. In the beginning it’s really tough. 

Kate Anthony: You don’t understand. I can’t do that. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Why not? It’s it really feels like no. You don’t understand. I can’t. I can’t. 

Michelle Farris: And that’s why I always talk about baby steps.

What can you do a little bit different? Maybe you make up a reason and you say, Hey, you know what? I’m sorry I, somebody’s at my door. I’ll call you back. Yeah. Like literally make something up. Who cares? 

Kate Anthony: Uhhuh, 

Michelle Farris: but get yourself. Out of that conversation. But you’re right. Beginning it’s like, what do I do?

Maybe you say a mantra to yourself, I’m okay. This isn’t about me. Their feelings are about them. You can do stuff like that because it is hard to set boundaries, and that’s why starting [00:42:00] baby steps to me is super, super important. 

Kate Anthony: What would happen if you weren’t available for, dinner this Saturday night?

With your family member, that makes you crazy, right? Or you decide to leave early on a holiday because you don’t wanna spend eight hours together, you’re gonna spend three. How awesome is that? The con I will say, I gotta tell you the con, that concept to me, when I first started, it was impossible. It was impossible.

And it was, it was always my mother. And my, my sponsor would say, she says, your mom sees your boundaries as goalposts. Like as soon as I set them, she was like, and it was legitimately. 

Michelle Farris: Wow. 

Kate Anthony: So she, it is so hard to set boundaries with her. Legitimately, but not impossible.

But if you had said to me like, you could just go for an hour. I would’ve been like you. You haven’t met her. You don’t understand. Yeah. ‘

Michelle Farris: Cause we have to deal with the fallout and that’s what takes time. And that’s why we [00:44:00] have to be so gentle with ourselves during this process because if you have a mother like that, it is gonna be scary to say, oh mom, I gotta go.

Because she’s gonna go after you and make you feel like crap. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Lots of guilt, lots of 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. 

Kate Anthony: Martyrdom and, yep. And and you’ll never hear the end of it. Yeah, it’s like easier to just stay until it’s not. 

Michelle Farris: Yeah. And that’s why we can’t beat ourselves up over this stuff.

It’s and trying to set boundaries with your family of origin is probably last on the list. Don’t start with them. Start with the person that feels safe, that loves you, that supports you. ’cause you’re gonna have a win. 

Kate Anthony: I say that to my clients all the time. Now let’s start small. That’s 

Michelle Farris: right.

Yep. 

Kate Anthony: Let’s start with the guy that’s bagging your groceries. Let’s start easy. I love it. Oh, I’m sorry. Can you put the bread in the other bag? Yeah. Just oh, I love 

Michelle Farris: that. 

Kate Anthony: So easy. No, no risk. No. Totally low stakes. 

Michelle Farris: Yep. 

Kate Anthony: Yep. Not like I did it. Which was, I started with my mother who like installed [00:45:00] every fucking button that I had.

Michelle Farris: Oh man. Yeah. That would be tough, right? 

Kate Anthony: So yes, starting small. I really like that. Yeah. I like that a lot for people who are really just coming, coming out of the fog and realizing, ooh, I’ve got some codependency work to do. What do you want them to know? 

I would definitely have them check out Al-Anon.

I like Al-Anon more than Coda. 

Kate Anthony: Me too. 

Michelle Farris: To me. Yeah. It’s just more clean and follows the traditions and all that. But agreed, find a support group because it’s really hard to do this stuff in one-on-one only. You need a tribe. You need a community that’s gonna walk you through, share your story, listen to their story, and there’s so many more tools out there.

Oh my gosh. If I had what I had 30 years ago. I would’ve been psyched, there just wasn’t as many tools out there and that’s part of the reason why I do this work is ’cause I wanna short shorten that time of [00:46:00] suffering for people. Yeah. Because it doesn’t have to be that hard. 

Kate Anthony: Yeah. We got into this before the age of the internet, we were just kidding there with our little like blueprint for progress or whatever.

Michelle Farris: Yeah. Now what do I do? 

Kate Anthony: No. Reading my detachment pamphlet right now. We have like whole podcasts about these things. 

Michelle Farris: That’s right. 

Kate Anthony: Michelle, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on. 

Michelle Farris: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 

Kate Anthony: Yes, anytime. Where can everybody find you? 

Michelle Farris: So my website is counseling recovery.com and I have a YouTube channel that’s relationships that work with Michelle Farris.

Kate Anthony: Awesome. And that’s F-A-R-R-I-S. And that’s right. Everything will be in the show notes. Michelle, thank you so much for being here. 

Michelle Farris: Oh, thanks so much.

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DISCLAIMER:  THE COMMENTARY AND OPINIONS AVAILABLE ON THIS PODCAST ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING LEGAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ADVICE.  YOU SHOULD CONTACT AN ATTORNEY, COACH, OR THERAPIST IN YOUR STATE TO OBTAIN ADVICE WITH RESPECT TO ANY PARTICULAR ISSUE OR PROBLEM.

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